At least we're going to be on the tube map!

Does this mean the whole of the East London Line is being rebranded from 'Underground' to 'Overground' then?

This is still going to regarded as a poor relation to the 'Underground' I'm sure.

As, TBH, the ELLX isn't going to make a huge difference to my ability to get anywhere, one of the things I was looking forward to was getting the Tube roundels at the stations etc - in a 'Keeping up with the (North London) Joneses' kind of way. Now we're going to get some poxy orange roundel instead of a nice red one

first Underground...then Overground, and in another anouncement Major Ken is set to introduced a new tourist travel card, called 'Wombling Free".

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you , thank you, I'm here all week, do try the lobster.


And Yamaman, we care as, um, we all still live in the area.

Here's our new roundel....
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/pre...nt.asp?prID=886

Remember You're A Womble!

It just looks like a faded version of the red one?

So can we assume the depot will be based somewhere near Wimbledon Common?

Mike Batt will be raking it in.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5316358.stm

And if you look at the new map - it doesn't look like CP has very good transport links because they haven't included the other train lines.

Although the fact that the station is included at all and is shown to be accessible for people with disabilities is good. They've got a lot of work to do in order to achieve the accessibility!

Interesting idea, but possibly a tad confusing as its only for a couple of overground lines... And even more so as some Southern stations on the way to Victoria (?and others) announce themselves as being part of the 'overground network'.

Not sure why they have branded it 'overground', probably because it won't be as frequent as the tube.

Still annoyed that Tulse Hill didn't get any new services. One day in my dreams we will be connected to Brixton via a blue 'overground' - maybe when I am 80! Before then we stand to potentially lose train services as a result of Thameslink 2000.

Good luck to Crystal Palace overground and all who ride on her!

I'm quite narked that it is just shown as 'Overground' though and that the East London Line has effectively disappeared. It's not like we're on the tube at all!

Not that it makes any difference really, it was the good 'PR' for the area of being on the underground that I was looking forward too.

"He also promised to deliver a rail link at Dalston Junction, in east London, connecting the two lines, allowing passengers to travel between Richmond in south-west London and West Croydon, south London. "

That's 25 or so stops, via Hampstead Heath and Highbury and Islington !
50 stops there and back if you're going for a day out from Croydon to Richmond. Make sure you set off early.

If they really do want to improve overground links round the capital, I still don't understand why they don't make more of the route from London Bridge to Victoria - seems a prime route to upgrade to me

Well though it has been reclassed as on 'Overground', it is still included on the 'Tube' map so I can't really see what difference it makes - I'm sure there will be a 'Tubes, trains and trams' map that includes all the rail links too?

Just noticed that Crystal Palace is in Zone 4 on the new map, not on the borders of 3 and 4. Surely they can't change it back can they?

Sorry, have become a bit obsessed with this now!

Is the map not just something that the BBC quickly knocked together? I haven't found it on the TFL website in their news story.

It looks really enough to me - especially with Crystal Palace getting its wheelchair accessible symbol in anticipation of the station improvements.

Although it was quite possibly cobbled together quickly at TfL, which may explain why CP is in zone 4 - perhaps an oversight.



Well as I say it doesn't, in practice, make any difference at all. But effectively we will no longer be on a 'tube line'. So we can't say we're on the East London Line like Brixton can say it is on the Victoria Line. We're just on the generic 'Overground' (which is how I'd describe the current situation).

I know it's looking a gift horse in the mouth etc etc, but so many people dismiss this part of London because it is 'not on the Tube', I was looking forward to us getting our little bit of 'Tube' glory.

Looking on the bright side, this may help raise the profile of the overground/national rail lines as a part of the transport network in London, as unless you're a regular user of the trains, a lot of people in London completely overlook them.

All it serves to achieve for CP as far as I can see is make people believe they have to go via Canada Water to get here.

Somebody please explain the point in this multi-million pound enterprise to me as I just don't get it. As far as the rebranding is concerned anyway. Surely if you are going to put the overground transport links on the tube map, then put all of them on there not just the prime new 2012 routes that Ken has earmarked.

It's not exactly helpful is it? In much the same way, I made a number of tortured journeys on the circle line between Blackfriars and Kings Cross before I found out that the Thameslink would take me straight between the two in about a quarter of the time.



The key difference is that the new 'Overground' services will be under the control of TfL rather than a National Rail franchise.

Not particularly user friendly for the layperson though.

TFL Images

Hunting around the TFL site I found this image which seems to indicate that the trains will be TFL Overground branded. This is going to be a TFL service but run by a private company (Southern's parent Govia are amongst those pre selected). This could be a really good way to manage London-wide services or it could be a disaster. Time will tell.

the reason it is called Overground is that it cannot truthfully be called Underground, as only one small stretch of the rail is Underground. Due to the impervious clay / chalk mix south of the thames is why so few "Underground" stations are south. It cannot be called the East London line any more as it serves the south and Suth East of the river too, so Overground might not be the best of names but it is a name and more importantly puts us on the tube map of 2010. the rebranding of the line has led to it being given a new colour but for all extents and purposes, the Tube - not the misnamed Underground - is coming to Penge, Sydenham, Crystal Palace and Anerley.
It has to be good for us all to see London Tube trains in the area at long last.

I don't think the differentiation between 'Underground' and 'Overground' has got anything to do with whether it is subterranian or not, and everything to do with the fact the way this new service will be managed is completely different from the way the Tube is managed.

Equally, geographical accuracy isn't anything to do with why it will no longer be called the 'East London Line' (otherwise the Northern line might have a different name!) - but because it won't actually be a tube line as such.

I'm going to be interested to see how this pans out, because it has introduced a whole new category of transport. We might get the best bits of an rail service with the best bits of the tube...or the worst of both. Time will tell...

Whether it's tube or not tube, it has to be good for the area. If the other services are kept at their current levels, the station will have excellent transport links. My partner currently takes train, tube and tube to get to Docklands. The new service should make his journey and many others a lot quicker.

Although the Northern Line goes right through South London. And to be fair, the line is in the majority in South East, North East and East London, and passes through London as the Victoria Line passes through Victoria etc.

Large parts other "underground" lines are overground - central, district, metropolitan etc etc. I would prefer it was still labelled ELL.

I also agree if they are going to add some NR and TFL "overground" lines on teh London map they should put all of them on. I had some visitors from Denmark here over the weekend and trying to explain to them how to get around changing between NR and the tube made me realise how confusing it is for visitors. Especially with no London Bridge trains running on Sunday when they were wanting to head back from CP to London Bridge. Didn't help that the TfL site advised them to take the Hammersmith & City Line from Victoria. (which it doesn't run through of course!)

Well roll on ELLE in whatever format and whatever name with whatever colour logo!

Great that people will be able to use Oysters on NR stations within a few years though. Seems silly to have two systems (well, more than two) running

I do tend to forget quite how ridiculous the fares situation is right now, especially for visitors. I was trying to explain things to some guests the other day...

"you'll be best off getting an Oyster card and using pre-pay...unless you're using the overground...then you'd be better buying a travelcard. Which you'd be best off buying at an overground station because you can get them on paper....no you can't get them on paper on the tube, you'd need an Oyster card to get a travelcard on the tube...no that's different to pre-pay, you can put travelcards on Oyster too...but what every you do don't pay with cash because you'll pay twice as much. So you need to buy your travelcard before you get on bus, otherwise you'll pay double...so go to a tube station first if you want an Oyster card...you'll have to pay a deposit...but you can get that back if you hand it in to a tube station at the end of your stay...but not to an overground station. Yes you can still use an Oyster card on the overground, but you can't buy one on the overground. No, I don't know why they're called Oyster either."

Argh!

The whole current business about the Oyster card and charging cash users extortionate rates is really starting to make my blood boil . This system just serves to penalise visitors, most of whom will arrive here not having a clue what an Oyster card is. What other country have you been to where before you can use a bus or the underground you need to buy a card, which you then need to keep topped up with money? It's a complete joke.

Also, if you over-pay and have money left at the end of your stay here, do you get a refund for that when you return your card?

It's ironic that Ken is so desperate to get people on public transport but he's making it so difficult for people to do so.

Tokyo have a system like that but it's only for convenience. If you buy individual tickets it costs the same.

Incidently I've just been in Tokyo for 4 weeks and used the Metro system every day. It cost me £30 in total (and I travelled everywhere) and I saw only one delayed train... and it was delayed by 2 minutes. I struggle to see where all the money we're paying for London transport is going.

I actually think you can, yes.

According to RFIDnews, Nicole Carrol, then of EDS, said the name reflects the way "the oyster protects a pearl in much the same way that the card protects the cardholder's money." from here

That's fairly tenuous!

I actually think it is telling that the name has nothing whatsoever to do with transport, as it hints at the idea that the long-term plan is to use the pre-pay for non-transport convenience purchases as well (eg coffee and newspapers).

Doesn't an oyster MAKE a pearl? I wouldn't mind it if the oyster card actually created its own money....

One other bit of advice I'd offer is, if your company offer interest free loans to by a yearly travel card, do it.

1. Get it in December before the Jan price rises, save ££s
2. You get 12 months for the cost of 10.
3. Get a 1-4, even if you only live in 3, the difference divided out over teh months isn't that much, but it means you get a bigger sum, whack that in an ISA or spend it on something nice! (this last point is a bit of a grey legal area depending on your company's policy)


If your company doesn't do this.. .badger them to set one up!

If you surrender your annual card you will get a refund but the amount is calculated pro-rata on very unfavourable terms. Any 'discount' you expected to receive off the full tariff is removed first, and you end up paying the bit you used at a higher tariff. They work it out as though you'd never paid them all the money up front and charge you full whack. It's quite a mean arrangement but its hard to argue when they have your money. If you think you won't use a full year's worth you'll probably be better off with monthly cards.

But the company will ask for a receipt for the season ticket amount so you won't be able to put it into an ISA?!

From the TfL website today:
"Transport for London (TfL) has announced that MTR Laing and Go-Via have been selected to submit a 'best and final offer' for the contract to run London Overground services on the integrated North and East London Railways, under the management of TfL.

The contract will be awarded to the successful bidder in summer 2007.

London Overground services will start operating on the North London Railway when it passes to TfL in November 2007, and will operate an integrated service including the East London Railway when it re-opens, after work to extend the line, in 2010.

The linking up of the North and East London Railways will be the first step towards an orbital railway for London.

In phase one, TfL is investing £1bn to build the new East London Railway, by extending the existing East London Line north to Highbury & Islington and south to New Cross, Crystal Palace and West Croydon.

Phase two would provide a further link between Surrey Quays and Clapham Junction, completing the orbital rail network and serving 20 of London's 33 boroughs. "

Go-Via already operate Southern and South-Eastern services. MTR operate the Hong Kong Metro and Laing are a shareholder in Chiltern Trains, which run out of Marylebone. MTR have been looking for an opportunity to gain a UK franchise for some time, and it would be interesting to see how differently they'd manage the ELL/NLL/WLL services compared to the existing Southern/South-Eastern services style we're used to.

Has anyone on VN got experience of daily life using the HK Metro?

Yes I have. The HK Metro called MTR is spot on. Much different to the London underground services - everything is spotless, clean, tidy no graffiti. Trains are frequent, and on time.

However back here in the UK it's the infrastructure that lets us down. On the cleanliness side this is more to do with the people and our society. In HK there is much more respect for public transport and as a result that's why it's so spotless.

I find this announcement very disappointing but it comes as no surprise to me at all.

Whilst we should all applaud Ken (something i don't make a habit of) for trying to get better transport links south of the river this "overground thing" is simply a fudge approached more from cost considerations than what actually would be best for people south of the river.

I'm aware that the RMT Union are very concerned (cue the predictable cries of "you'll do anything for a strike" Zzzz) about who exactly will operate the ELLX/Overground/Mickey Mouse Line and they are totally opposed to it being taken out of traditional Underground operation on grounds of safety, upkeep and various other staffing and funding issues.

Aside from all that what will this line actually achieve? It will not reduce journey times to anyone travelling to either Croydon, Clapham or Victoria and nor will it benefit anyone wishing to travel west to say Wimbledon, sutton, or Thorton Heath. We are told it will add additional services towards London Bridge but my concern would be the operational difficulties found with the Mickey Mouse Line sharing tracks with traditional rail services. Ask anyone reliant on the northern end of the Bakerloo line and they will tell you it can be a nightmare. This line could have been planned to link up with the Northern Line (it won't), the DLR (it won't) and when the tramlink will be extended the two combined will provide very little in the way of new lines or quickness for Joe Commuter.

It is Transport on the cheap and whilst it should not be dismissed totally it should held up as transport on the cheap.

Acuitally if you use Anerley and/or Penge West the number of services are going to increase from 2 per hour in each direction to 6 per hour in each direction providing a very useful increase in Croydon services.

There will be a connection at street level with Shadwell on the DLR (see TFL East London Railway Route Map (PDF).

The East London Railway will provide a very useful service for many of us. I have to go up to Stratford once a week in the rush hour and I am looking forward to avoiding Zone 1. Together with the Tramlink it is going to be a lot better than the 157 into Croydon in the rush hour. It isn't perfect, but it is better than nothing. T

As to the Northern Line, I have posted this before:

Hansard Debate
I was reading another forum and came across this quote from a statement by Cecil Parkinson who was the Secretary of State for Transport in the late 1980s . These make interesting proposals with the East Dulwich route only dropped around 4 years ago if I remember correctly. What happened to the Northern Line extension I don't know, but this would be a fantastic upgrade for us down here.

http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html



There is more information and witty repartee on Diamond Geezer's blog...
http://diamondgeezer.blogspot.com/2007_11_01_archive.html

DG's site also mentions that there are just 1720 days to the 2012 Olympics.

Also, did you know that according to this VN poll of 1600 members a staggering 0% think that "Branding is very important for the Olympics".

It's great news that Silverlink Metro has been taken over as the trains are woefully inadequate for that line. Hopefully they will be replaced with modern trains that have more carriages then it won't be such a dog fight to get on them.

Re the introduction of Oyster pre-pay on this line, it's great that we are finally starting to see it being used on the trains but it won't make a difference for most customers who start their journey on a different line e.g. Southern, South West Trains as it's not valid on any other service. The best use of Oyster pre-pay for me would be between Victoria and Clapham Junc so that if I have a zone 2 & 3 travelcard and want to travel in zone 1, I can do so without purchasing a paper ticket.

Oyster Pre Pay is supposed to be rolling out this and next year across National Rail in London as I understand it. Not much longer to go...

I don't know, call me a cynic, but we're not really getting a tube at all are we. Ooh yeah we get to travel on new trains sporting the Underground Roundel. I reckon trains would be more frequent from Gipsy Hill into town. 15 mins a pop?? It's probably been mentioned on this thread....but it is very long.

I thought we were to be East London Line, not London Overground, which consists of possibly the worst bits of railway in London. As a regular user of the Barking Gospel Oak line a few years back i can vouch.

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but TfL are celebrating the London Overground announcement by giving away free Oyster Cards

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/tickets/oysteronline/freeoyster/

just so you don't get too excited, this is what they are giving:
Free card means that the usual £3 deposit has been removed for the purposes of the promotion
The application does not give the individual a right to free travel.....etc.

and they send it to you in 28 days.

Wow, what an offer!
I'd prefer if TFL celebrated by taking control of the Southern rail services from Gipsy Hill into town and implementing Swiss-style regimental timetabling.

Moderator's Note
Off topic comments posted here have now been moved to a new topic.

The discussion of the timetable highlights for Norwood to Victoria trains is here...
http://www.virtualnorwood.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5278

I read an article over the week-end re some groups in Sydenham and Forest Hill opposing the cut of trains oon the overgroud. They suggest that they want to scrap completely the LB to Victoria (and return) trains!!

Is this old news?

My card came in Friday's post.

LSPE - can you give us some more detail on that story about the LB-->Victoria trains please?? That thought is slightly concerning.
Cheers

I was in the laundrette and there was the South London something Gazette and I read this article - as it was not mine I did not cut the page and admittedly I forgot to buy a copy.

The article suggested that there are groups in Sydenham and Forest Hill getting together to block the (potential) cancellation of the LB to Victoria. I fI remember well there was a quote from someone from the TFL that suggested we'd be better off due to new trains with the EEL.

If you go in the newsagent in the corner of G and Central Hill they should ahve the paper ... I think

FOUND IT!!!


http://www.sydenhamsociety.com/index.html

I quote frm their website, not my words: "Our worst fears have been confirmed. Rail chiefs have announced a triple-whammy for rail passengers travelling from Forest Hill and Sydenham in 2010. The current timetable review - the Rail Utilisation Strategy- proposes to cut the number of services to and from London Bridge by a quarter. On top of this, the twice hourly service from London Bridge to Victoria may also be axed leaving passengers unable to catch direct trains to Clapham Junction and Victoria. And in the evening through trains from Charing Cross will also be scrapped leaving passengers to make their way to London Bridge to catch home-bound trains... read the complete article."

Hi

This link shows the route of East London Line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EsBLCvj2g4
Fast forward to 4.10 minutes for Crystal Palace.

If link fails go to You Tube and search East London Line.