This was a rough weekend for residents on the Penge end of Thicket Road. At about 5am we were awakened by the noise and lights of what looked like an invasion of aliens in our back gardens. The gardens here back on to the railway berm, mostly with a dense and attractive forest of vegetation that shielded us from the tracks of the line. The alien invasion turned out to be a big team of tree cutters, lighting vehicles, etc along the tracks. As the brutal whine of trees coming down continued from a number of sites in our back gardens, we went to ask what was going on. We were told that:

Network rail had commissioned a company to take down all the trees along the railway slope.
They had removed TPS (Tree Protection Orders) along the whole trackline. (How can they do that without letting residents know?)
They had leafleted the neighbourhood (our house was missed, but we found out that neighbours did receive a letter mentioning only ‘foliage maintenance’ in mild terms, not cutting down trees)
They are no longer trimming branches only, as budget cuts means the railways don’t have the funds to sweep the tracks, so they need a scorched earth policy. (It was also suggested by some residents that this is also compounded with EU policy on railways, where much wider swaths are owned by the railways than have been the case in the past in the UK).
That the trees coming down were all weeds, as only oaks are left standing (despite the fact that many of these trees were >50 years old, had been properly pollarded to keep branches and leaves off the tracks, and some were evergreen needled trees)
That they owned 5 more meters of land into our gardens than indicate by our fence line, so they were on their own property. As this was the first we had heard of that, we asked for documentation. They had no paperwork on them for this work with them, but promised to bring it later in the day. We gave all our contact information but were not contacted.
That they were cutting most heavily in areas that ‘looked untended’. (so much for the wildlife corridor we want to keep along the railway lines)
When we politely asked to see the paperwork we were very aggressively told that if we wanted to stop the works we could, but if it turned out that our concerns were not correct and that they were within the rules, that we personally would have to pay for 2 days of train stoppage and deploying the team to re-commence the work. (note this is 6:30 am on a Sunday).
After further discussion the boss of the project offered to give us some oak saplings to replant in our garden. Should be only 70 years or so and we will have our vegetation screen back.

Lots of trees got cut down. The railway line now seems to have moved right into our gardens. This dramatically changes the perspective from the houses and lowers the property values. If it turns out that they have over cut the boundary, it will be too late to do anything about it.

There are many sad lessons in this event. Any suggestions on what might be done to remediate, or shared similar experiences will be appreciated.

You could try posting the details on the forum on the Garden Law site : gardenlaw.co.uk.

Some of their lot seem pretty clued up and might have some ideas.

This is dreadful. My generation grew up with the premise that money was not everything. How true that was but how easily this is now tossed away. This world is all about money and nothing to do with quality of life or consideration of others.

And I include the wildlife who will of course be left with nowhere to go.

The only way to stop people behaving in a purely money driven way is the government. That;s what they are for. They have given in and I am rather afraid there will be no going back to sanity soon. This kind of behaviour makes everyone despair. Modt of us would go for the money. The Government should regulate us and save us from ourselves!!

It must have been awaful for you. I remember how we cried when they hacked down the trees on the Parade, not to mention the 300 year old Oaks in the park.

thanks for your sympathy, Silver. Thanks for the tip Charlottedare - the link you provided looks like a place to get perspective on the fractious topic of garden conflicts.
We were pretty devestated and spent most of the day in displacement behaviour. Next week we will try to move forward with a plan for improving the garden after the onslaught. We are thinking about trees to plant, ponds to dig, etc. A siliver lining is that it brings neighbours together, talking and even taking on projects together. But we will still have a train noisily rattling along above it all, now looking in the windows. And it will cost money, which is in short supply. One of the main reasons we moved into the area was the big trees. I'm interested in 'Axean the Native''s suggestions on what we can plant that will grow fast and yet is still in keeping with the native vegetation and/or at least encouraging wildlife. Birch ok? Redwoods?

Oh - the lovely owl serenades of the past evenings were completely quiet yesterday. Let's hope they weren't made homeless. I don't think any kind of EIA was done.

Thats absolutely AWFUL! Surely they can't do that and get away with it?!?!

Are there any trees left anywhere in your back gardens? I am happy to come and tie myself to any remaining ones!

Seriously though, I really think you should take some legal action. They have trespassed and destroyed part of your property, reduced your house prices, devasted an area of beauty... oh it makes me so angry hhmmmmppphhh

I just dont understand why people do these sorts of things. And theres so much in the news at the moment about how the government is dedicated to tackling green issues...

If you took legal action and won lots of money you could then use that money to relandscape the whole area. I'm sure there must be some charities or nature trusts, local or regional, that would be interested in helping you pursue legal action? What about going to see Ken when he's in Bromley soon and bringing it up with him?

Any ideas anyone?

Ziwa - one of the fastest growing trees is Eucalyptus (there are several varieties). It would give you a screen in a very short time - and it's evergreen. They are of course not native but they have a lovely bark and respond well to heavy cutting/pruning. You could plant slower growing trees at the same time and remove the Eucalypti later if you wished. You may even get visit from Koala bears!

Ziwa - one of the fastest growing trees is Eucalyptus (there are several varieties). It would give you a screen in a very short time - and it's evergreen. They are of course not native but they have a lovely bark and respond well to heavy cutting/pruning. You could plant slower growing trees at the same time and remove the Eucalypti later if you wished. You may even get visit from Koala bears!

oooh lets hope Axean doesn't hear you say Eucalyptus! That's the death tree for wildlife in lots of places. The striking quiet of the eucalyptus forests in California, Africa, etc is because all those mentholy smells kill off insects, makes it tough for birds, and makes the ground underneath allolopathic (fancy word for nasty). If we had Koalas and Lyre Birds in the Palace it'd be fine. Maybe we should reconsider alien introductions, as they would be charming.

I agree that Eucalyptes have beautiful leaves and bark.

Hi silver, I agree that it all seems to be about money now.

A few weeks ago a row of ten mature pine trees were felled just across from our house. They've been there for over 30 years and the lovely view they provided was one of our reasons for buying our house. The house at the side of the trees is a buy to let, and they complained the lack of light from the trees was affecting the rentability of the flats.

So they started a court action and forced them to be felled. All we see now is a row of stumps.

Maybe we should have a tree watch section. Anyone can pm me if trees are being wrongly cut down and providing I am available I will come and stand in front of the bulldozers if a minimum of three others turn up. Any others want to add their names to such an enterprise. You are right you see there is no democratic way to deal with these things.

Even if the law is on our side, that is no use after the event! Direct action is the only recourse so come on everyone add your names to the cause (but only if you are going to turn up!) and maybe James could store them somewhere on the site ready for action!

Count me in Silver, seems the only way to stop the tree felling epidemic going on in norwood.

I think we'd need a decent number of people to stop the treecutters though, they're so determined to fell the trees, and likely to be aggressive. I've confronted them a few times in the past, but their response is always "just following orders".

Neither Trees, Nor Wood.....

Let's not let the area succomb to linguistic determinism!

In spirit I'd chain myself to the trees with Silver, but I'm a little hesitant in actuality. I would be interested in getting a clear perspective on the rules and being ready to challenge the choppers on the legality of their actions. That means being there, ready to do battle, albeit verbal. I've seen Silver in action - she's a master at that!

OK count me in.

You can count me in too

About 80 trees may be cut down to build the new Elmgreen school although we are hoping that plans at full planning might be a bit more creative and save some of the larger specimens. None of the trees have Tree Preservation Orders (TPOs) because the land belongs to Lambeth Council and they don't make TPOs on their own sites!

It was indeed awful. The supervisor chap told me that Network Rail owned 20m from the track, not the 5m that the owner occupiers were led to believe. He said that the clearing was to allow Network Rail to reclaim their land and move the fencing 20m further into the gardens.

As a renter, it's hard to get the official info to clarify this but the owners have promised to get the deeds and look into it.

Are there any plans that might suggest the building of another track along the line?

I heard the owls on Monday and yesterday, it's the first time I have noticed them, perhaps they have moved into another garden nearer to mine?

Ang - this sounds like we need to get organized. We were told they own 5m past the current fence line (so this could potentially mean 20m from the tracks, depending on where they measure from). This could also vary by property as to where the existing fenceline is relative to what they (say they) own. However, last time they committed unannounced arbicide they said it was 10 feet past the current fence line. To repeat - they told me they would bring the papers by later in the day, but didn't, despite having all my contact information. We should get in touch and also perhaps see who else in the area is concerned about this.

It was with relief that we heard the owls again too, and watched a wily fox hunt a squirrel this morning among the wood chips. Life goes on.

Ziwa if you want to establish the boundaries of your (or anyone's property) you should be able to do this through the land registry (an online service) but they charge (I think £5) for the information.

OK.
A couple of things: You need to contact a lady called Coral Gibson, she is Bromley councils Tree officer, has worked in the Borough for many , many years and will be very pro-active if Network Rail have done any thing out of order.

If they have cut down tree's which are subject to Preservation Order's, this requires Planning Permission, the same as a new housing development or household extensions. Destroying tree's with a TPO ( Tree Preservation Order) without planning permission is a Criminal offence with a possible Five year prison sentence and ( I think) a £20k fine per Tree.

Network Rail, formerly Rail Track,British Rail and previously various private Rail companies did own vast amount's of Land adjacent to there tracks.

Over the years many house holders have included that land as part of there back gardens. The railway companies, erracticly tried to formalise this land use over the years by granting house holders's licences ( similar to leases) , to use the land.

Where these licences have lapsed, been lost or can not be proved Network Rail have a big problem in proving Title ( ownership of the land). Owners can then under certain circumstances apply for , possesary title of the Land ,as long as there claim meets certain criteria. (e.g. Lease holders or tennants do not comply with the test for such a claim). I could go on but do not wish to bore ZZZzzzz

Got to say that Network Rail's claim to ownership of land that is fenced into your garden sounds very iffy.

Whilst it may be the case that the land originally belonged to them and that the fence line does not mark the true boundary you can acquire rights of ownership through squatters rights (or more waht is more properly described as "adverse possession")

The process and the law would require legal advice but a rough overview of the topic can be read here

http://www.propertylawuk.net/adversepossessionsquatters.html
http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/assets/libr...ct_sheet002.pdf

In essence if you can show that you have enjoyed the uniterrupted use of the land for between 10-12 years including use by your pre-decessors in title) then you may be able to assert ownership of the land. Use would not be uniterupted if , for example, Network Rail had entered the land in the past to fell trees/move the fence etc etc or had written to you or the former owners asserting their ownership.

I would absolutely insist on proof by Network Rail that they own the land which they have entered and carried out works to. If they don't own it then you would have a right to sue for trespass and probably nuisnace and seek damages for these and damages for interference with peaceable enjoyment of your property and loss of amenity (i.e loss of the enjoyment of the trees , their shielding effect from the railway and to an extent any affect on your house price)

Sadly it's too late for the trees that have gone but others who are expecting the works might have grounds for an injunction to prevent the felling until ownership has been established


Top tips

take plenty of photographs of what has happened
Get a copy of the "filed plan" of your property from HM Land Registry
Insist that network Rail produce details of their title
Check whether you rhome contents policy has legal expeneses insurance which might fund a legal action.
Get all your neighbours and previous occupiers to dig out old photo's of the garden to show where the fence line has been historically going back about 15 years
Check with Ordnance Survey to see if their archive contains arial photographs going back 15 years (these can be illuminating!)

Residents of Camden Hill Road had a problem similar to this with the Methodist Church in Westow Hill. A row of trees needed attention because they were pushing over a tall boundary wall that backed onto the resident's gardens (the established boundary). The church had erected a fence within their own property and were asserting the trees weren't their responsibility. In the end they came good and sorted out the felling of the errant trees (a shame but sometimes this is necessary). One of the things that helped was a 100 year old map that failed to show the alleged boundary on their side.

Thanks everybody. Your comments have been very helpful. If any of you out there live in the area and want to confer on this, send me a PM and we can talk about the way forward between ourselves. I will try to establish the veracity of Network Rail's claims with respect to our property, but it would be good to do this for several properties along the line.

Funny thing, I noticed that at the stations there are loads of trees much closer than those laid claim to in this event. Is the risk factor only in areas where the train moves fast? Or do all properties near tracks need to be prepared for taking trees down within 20m of the track?

I cant believe they have the cheek to do this, and am worried about what it could mean to the rest of the railway, especially the area between Penge West and Sydenham. You've been given good advice so far, and there will be error when locating a boundary, but 5 meters is too much. I think you can call in the police if they have destroyed plants on your land.

When it comes to replanting I would suggest the Common Oak, but I'm biased. No large tree will produce a screen for decades. I'd suggest planting a mix of Common Oak and Wild Cherry. Wild Cherry is native, fast growing, with blossoms and edible fruit. Eventually after decades the oaks will grow over the wild cherrys which can survive in the shade made by the oaks. A mature canopy will take decades so it may as well be oak.

There is a "nature reserve" at Sydenham Hill Station managed by the London Wildlife Trust. Maybe they might be able to give you some help.

There is also a Wildlife Trust garden in East Dulwich, which sells plants including young native trees cheaply. 28 Marsden Road, Open sunday from 10.30 or Mon-Thur.

A similar issue has just been reported on BBC News...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/souther...ies/6133562.stm

It's spreading...

They've just "re-landscaped" the area by Gipsy Hill station too, between Sainsbury Road and Mount Baten Close.

Admittedly, before it was a bit of an overgrown mess and a haven for fly-tippers - but there were some lovely old trees there, really big old oaks etc.

Not any more.

All hacked down and hacked to bits to be replaced by...?

More trees? Albeit young ones. And there's new turfing too.

Can't say it looks that bad, but I cannot see the need to kill all those lovely old trees.

I'm just this moment watching a tree cutter sizing up an old tree in South Vale. I've heard that it's rotten, but looks quite healthy to me. This is a lovely old tree, full of character, and must be at least fifty years old - probably more. I just know that he's working out how to fell it, and where to park his tree shredder. Of course it means nothing to him - just good money for removing it. For us it means the loss of a lovely view, and dramatically changing the character of the street irreversibly (they never plant replacement trees do they).

Though we live in a conservation area, all it needs is for the tree cutter to declare it unsafe and down it comes. There is no planning law for trees I believe, no council consideration of the environmental effects - so it will just happen suddenly one day soon- unannounced - when the tree cutter comes with his chums and removes it, to the horror of everyone living here.

When it happens, will anyone join me in trying to stop these environmental assassins from doing their dirty work? I suppose it means standing in front of the chainsaws?

As a community forum, I think we need to find out the line of decision making on this. I did hear from the Bromley Tree Protection Officer (thanks to DutchCow for the tip on how to contact them) and it looks like there is no paper trail on the cutting on the railway siding along Thicket Road. Also, although it has now been almost weeks since the intial event, I have yet to receive any paperwork indicating Network Rail's right to enter this area and cut down lots of trees. The promised replanting has yet to materialize. Its looking like Network Rail did something that was somewhere in between irresponsible (not informing all affected parties, the council, etc) and illegal, though it is still a bit too early to draw final conclusions.

Davem - go and ask the guy for his paperwork on permissions to cut. If he has everything in order, then sad but so be it. But if he starts cutting without being able to produce any papers, there might be something wrong.

I know that subsequent to my enquiries (which were very conciliatory and not antagonistic, by the way) the tree and fence guys have said that they started to be a bit more circumspect and slowed down a bit. But perhaps not enough so.

certainly. I have p.m.d my details

DaveM

Trees within conservation areas are protected. Anyone wishing to fell lop trim or therwise a tree within a conservation area consent is required to give six weeks notice to the Council - so it can decide whetehr or not to pt on a TPO.

You can check with the council whether they received notification for any works to that tree. If they didn't you should speak to the tree officer/enforcement team regarding the unauthorised trimming.

Hi JMS

I have an update about the big old tree opposite my house. I was convinced they wanted to fell it, and sure enough - as of this morning - there are notices posted warning people not to park in front of the tree, as it's due to be felled- starting tomorrow.

I checked with croydon council online planning and no mention of this. I phoned croydon council and they couldn't find any info on it - but promise to look into it and call me back. I hope they do, because otherwise the tree is gone, and then it's too late to do anything about it, as usual.

The tree is in a conservation area and affects my view in a big way. With it gone I lose a lot of privacy - have the residents of 50 flats looking straight down on me. Mostly though it affects the leafy character of the street. We've already had a row of 10 old pines felled a couple of months back, and with this gone, we have hardly any trees left.

I'll keep this updated - if I hear or not from the council by the end of today

ok - the council have phoned me back - apparently this is an old planning application from many years back, so they already have permission to do this. The tree is rotten and a danger to the public, so they say. Looks like an end to the story, and they can chop it down. I asked if they could just prune it, but too late for that it seems - the tree is mostly dead they say. Just wanted to tell everyone so no point in us trying to intervene

Hi DaveM,
At least you got a clear answer. I've had very little success in finding out whether the tree felling on the railway line on Thicket Road was legit or not. To date (mid December) there has been no evidence that it was. The Bromley tree protection officer did seem very concerned when I finally got through to her (that took 2 weeks, from when I first got the info from DC on where to call. They said it was phone tag, but since they didn't leave messages except once, and I called daily I'd say it wasn't tag. Also, I recieved one sympathetic call from an assisitant who said she would pass the details on to the boss, and that never happened either) They said they would get back to me right away, after chasing up some details. Its been what...6 more weeks? I've sent an email, left my mobile number, left phone messages almost daily and had no reply. A older colleague who lives in Downe mentioned that the Bromley Tree Office is famously ineffective and has never won a battle for saving trees. I was optimistic after my phone conversation, but am now very pessimistic that this might be true.

Did anyone notice that the Gipsy Hill Councillor, Andrew Gibson, wrote very sympathetically about the tree felling near the station in his entry in The Palace magazine? Hurrah for him! I'm curious why the Bromley councillor didn't mention this cutting of a much larger number of trees in his area. Perhaps Chris Gaster will put this on the agenda and address what are very valid concerns for his constituents.

On to more positive suggestions than politics: note that if you can get the cut trunks to be left in place and they are allowed to rot, this can act as a new habitat for animals, especially stag beetles. London is a special place for these freaky creatures, so it is worth putting in extra effort to make it welcoming for them. See these links www.wildlondon.org.uk/stag_beetle.php and www.ptes.org/work/baps/stag-beetle.html. Could you get your council, since they seem sympathetic, to do this and perhaps put up a small sign saying why the trunks are left in place? Or could the old trunks be emplaced elsewhere if necessary, but at least left to provide some habitat diversity?

Hi Ziwa

Thanks for your reply. I understand that this tree is partly dead and rotten, and so a potential hazard, or possible source of litigation. But I think croydon council agrees to drastic action too easily. Would be better from an aesthetic point to try to prune trees or prop up and save what's possible. This is a really old ash tree, very interesting shape, and is really part of the character of the street.

Over the past 2 months we've lost 12 old trees just around our house, I'd say the character of the street is drastically changed, and needs to be considered by planners. Unless council's get stricter on this, and more tuned in to the environmental aspects, this area's not going to be a leafy area in 10 year's time. It's too easy to chop trees down, and it seems most people don't give a damn.

And http://www.virtualnorwood.com/localinfo/unwildlife.shtml

Found out that the tree wasn't rotten after all - the tree cutter told me. Looks like a put up job, people concerned about insurance claims I suppose. So what are Croydon Tree dept doing?

Hi DaveM

I'll fill you in on our Thicket Road saga, perhaps to give you more hope, or to provide momentum for our area tree concerns. Your posting came up just as I got off the phone with the Bromley Tree Protection Officer (reached her at last!). I am once again a bit more optimistic, as she was very sympathetic and said that she also has not had a reply from NetWork Rail. She also said that even if they own the land where they cut (as they claimed during the cutting, but have never produced the evidence despite several requests) they were supposed to clear the cutting job with the council before they began. So we will continue to push on this point and see what can be done.

cheers,
Ziwa

Hi all,
This is a news update on my posting from a year ago when Network Rail cut a lot of trees in our back gardens along Thicket Road. The original outrage has not been remedied (no reply from Bromley Tree Office, etc) but I thought I'd update you that they are cutting again on the far side of the tracks, on the Annerly Park side. We had a chat with the fellows doing the cutting and it does look like general tree maintenance, as they are just taking out some diseased trees now. HOWEVER, a few weeks ago they did clear-cut a lot of that formerly wooded patch, and it is now largely barren. There is no discussion of revegetating it....I guess they will just let it sprout naturally into a matress garden, busted appliance island, or similar local speciality.
It really is a pity that these small spaces of greenery are not better managed, as they are very important wildlife habitats and for softening the hard edges of urban landscape, which makes for happier people.

Oh this is so nice…how the forum have become more helpful and supportive.

It was for this reason, many years ago, that I switched from being a reader of this forum to a contributor.

As you can see from the link below, the members did not seemed to share my concerns.

Good luck and I totally share your concerns.

My first post

The networkwail site I remember being very interesting, but sadly is no more!

Bad news and Good News - Network Rail will strike again with their whining agents of death for our Thicket Road trees in the middle of the night…..and a neighbour gets proactive!

During last week we received a Network Rail flier, and today it was re-distributed with the following written on the back:

“Dear Neighbours
Please be aware. The notice overleaf has only just been sent out by Network Rail. They have only sent one copy of this notice to the houses in the area despite many of these being in multiple occupancy, so many of you might not be aware of these impending works scheduled for next Sunday 3rd Febraury 2008 from 1am, at night!

These works can have a huge impact on our local green environment and the wildlife within it, as has been previously experienced in the area. If you do care about the trees and wildlife that exist along this stretch of track behind our houses, then use the contact numbers on their notice overleaf to register your objection to any felling of the trees, it is not too late to influence their works. This is a long established green area that has had no history of safety issues, and has always in the past just been maintained by British Rail/Railtrack using periodical pruning back of the trees from the tracks, not unwarranted felling to just save Network Rail money on maintenance in the future, whilst leaving behind an area blighted by the removal of minimal screening and noise reduction we presently receive from the trains by the trees, and permanently disrupting the wildlife living there.

Please give this thought and act urgently if you care – together we really can make a difference to try to protect and maintain the character of our local environment for both us and future generations, whether human, feathered or furry!”

Bravo to the person with the initiative to distribute this up and down the street!

Here are the contact details for those of you who are also willing to pitch in with a call or letter:
The people doing the cutting: UPM Tillhill - 01892-771-900 (the boss is named Mr Peter Clinch)

The people who make the policy and contract the work: Network Rail 0845-711-4141, address: Suite 2 , General Offices, Waterloo Station, London, SE1 8SW

If you want to know more, the following is from the Network Rail letter – read this if you plan to call/write (sorry its long, but it might make you laugh/wince with the irony.)

Dear Resident
I am writing to advise you that UPM TILHILL will be carrying out vegetation management work on behalf of Network Rail along a stretch of railway line between Sydenham Station and Crystal Palace Station. Some of the work may be carried out near to your property.

The work is planned to start at 0100hs on Sunday 3rd February and end at 0400hrs on Monday 4th February 2008. This work can only be undertaken when the line is closed.

When planning work of this kind, we prioritise sites with a history of vegetation related safety problems.
The safety problems identified along this stretch of the railway include:
Obstruction of vision for train drivers of signals on approach to the stations and junctions
A history of vegetation blocking safe walking routes for trackside workers and inspectors
Trees assessed as a risk to the safe operation of train services

Throughout the site, we will be removing slected woody vegetation, including any branches overhanging into this area. We may have to remove certain trees that cause safety problems outside of this area, due to disease, rot or signal sight-line obstruction.

We are aware that the initial impact of some of our work can seem severe. However, the railway lineside will regenerate through natural re-growth of native species and ongoing management will benefit native plants and wildlife.

If you have specific questions about work on this site, please call UPM TILHILL on 01892771900 between the hours of 0900 and 1700.
If at any time during the work you have safety concerns or enquiries about Network Rai’s general vegetation management policy, please contact the Network Rail 24 hour Helpline on 0845-711-411

I would like to apologize in advance for any disturbance or impact on the local environment near your property, but I hope you will appreciate the essential nature of this work.
Yours faithfully
Community Relations
Network Rail Southern Region
******************************

sorry this is so long, but if you’ve read to hear, you might be interested in a few editorial comments:
• Last time (the start of this thread) they severely under-distributed the fliers. If you have any friends whose property backs on to this line ask if they know this is coming.
• They told us when we went to talk to them that they were only cutting branches and some tree tops on the track side, whereas when they were finished there were numerous big trees levelled to the ground, coated with anti-regrowth toxins
• They cut trees that were apparently within our property boundary (outside the railfence), but did not have any plans with them that could justify their jurisdiction or show that they had any kind of plan for the work.
• The project foreman went from directly threatening, telling us that if we continued with our questions which he could not answer and caused the project to stop, that we personally would be liable for the costs of rail closure, team transport (from Durham as they don’t pay local wages), to then trying to placate us by saying he would give us hardwood trees (oaks, etc ) to plant to make up for the cutting. This has never happened, despite me following up on the offer.
• Regrowth is very unlikely to be ‘native vegetation’ along a disturbed railway siding, as weedy plants, many of them exotics, will out-compete the native plants for a long time.
• I have tried to contact the Bromley Tree Officer to discuss this and did not succeed except for some initial contacts which indicated that the cutting was likely have been done improperly. I called and left messages many 10s of times and was never contacted in return.
• A year+ after the first round of cutting and the area still looks like a denuded railway berm. Regrowth has not been very extensive, although weeds have increased. We have only rarely heard owls now, whereas it used to be very regular.

Shocked and saddened by this. Don't live in your immediate area but would be willing to put in a complaint/objection if it would be counted. Will it work if we just tell the felling contractor or does it need more formal action with Network Rail or some other organisation? It is so close to happening, I'm wondering what's quickest to get the work delayed and allow more time to convince them to continue with just maintenance. What about legal redress, at least to cause a delay? I don't know much about this and am reluctant to just Google and hope I'll learn enough as you know much more about it.

You can ask for a tree preservation order to be put on all the trees. This can be done quickly by the Bromley Tree officer, but she doesnt appear responsive and I have fear that railways have some sort of opt out. I suggest phoning the two Crystal Palace Ward councillors. They can probably speed up the process. All the trees along the railway line (in Bromley) between Sydenham and Crystal Palace/Norwood Junction need some type of protection. This does not mean network rail should be stopped from cutting down any trees, but they should be forced to retain the important habitat along the railway lines.
The councillors have made the following details available on their council webpage (something else to add to the wiki site?)

Tom Papworth
c/o Members Room, Bromley Civic Centre, Bromley, BR1 3UH
Telephone: 020 8778 2906
Email: tom.papworth@bromley.gov.uk

John Canvin
Address: 85 Shortlands Road, Bromley, BR2 0JL
Telephone: 020 8402 0103
Email: john.canvin@bromley.gov.uk

This railway line is considered a very important wildlife corridor (most are) and is mostly protected once it reaches Lewisham. Areas of woodland along the railway in that borough have been designated wildlife reserves.
We've got a week to do something, and I have a couple of people I can contact on Monday with some good arguements for why the trees need to be carefully managed.

Hi Ziwa and all at VN (my first post)

Well i finally got round to it at last Ziwa to register on this fine forum - when push came to shove though! I am the guy from up the road and who meet with you last year after the first assault by Network Rail and UPM on our road down at your end, and it was me who distributed copies of their notice with my comments on saturday to all the houses. I also dropped copies of this to all the properties bordering the tracks on the other side as well, as their stretch is due for the chop also. (Many thanks for your compliment by the way Ziwa)

Firstly some short term better news in as much as i have now been informed by both NR & UPM that these works have been postponed for next sunday 3rd Feb, due to some emergency engineering work that now needs to take place instead apparently. I personally am treating this statement with some caution still, and as they say, they are still planning to rearrange for another date asap this year so the heat 'may' be off just for now but i for one am not going to sit back over this.

The crux of this issue for me is just why do they suddenly now consider this area such a problem that they need to take such drastic action on the trees. I have lived alongside this line for 17 years and, under the previous management of both Brtitish Rail and Railtrack, it was never considered necessary to remove trees but rather just periodically cut them back when they started to overhang towards the tracks. I fully appreciate they have to maintain safe network, but this section has always been safe with the trees as they are, and there has never been any safety issues that i am aware of which they are trying to now use to justify their actions. Also as i think you are aware, this area is one of Bromley Councils designated 'Conservation Areas' which carries with it further legal protection for any tree that is within it. I have seen none of the usual notices on the road that the council affix after they have received the required six weeks notice of any application for pruning or felling to be considered. I have already last week emailed both the Conservation Area and Tree Protection officers at Bromley over this to make them aware of the situation, and to find out if they have received any application from NR for these works.

I have also personally written to both NR and UPM asking for a detailed specification in writing of the works intended and am awaiting their reply and shall update you in due course. I also do not believe their other justification about there being disease and rot in many of the trees, we know full well that virtually everything they took out last year were perfectly healthy specimens. Beyond them, I shall be taking the matter to the local MP Jacqui Lait, the two local LibDem councillors, Ken Livingstone and Gordon Brown. I am also going to approach the London Wildlife Trust to see if we can enlist their help.

Anyway, i think thats long enough for a first post for now! So many thanks to all of you who care and for your responses so far, contact numbers to make your objections to already provided above. Lets not take this lying down, i really believe this is an issue worth fighting over, what would our 'Green and pleasant land' look like if they apply this apparently finance driven philosophy over it up and down the country...

Well done on all your efforts. How would you like emails worded? An outright objection (where does this then go?) or a gentle query as to the nature and reason for the felling? I imagine the latter will be met with the "safety" rubbish they've already said.

Well done! The Eagle no longer lurks, and we can get organised to meet the challenge. Like Eagle, I want to be reasonable about safety issues etc, but have not seen evidence that this is justified in this situation. The potentially marginal cost savings are being had at a very high cost to local residents (as is the case in most environmental destruction).

I just noticed I made a typo in the Network Rail phone contact - the correct number is: 08457 11 41 41 press 4
If you need the postcode it is SE20, the line is Victoria-LondonBridge, Crystal Palace section, and they will ask you why you need to know - local resident was a satisfactory answer.
They told me just now that they need 5m cleared on either side of the track (which sounds reasonable). I verified several times that they mean the metal rail of the track, not the edge of the gravel base. The tree cutting from last year was significantly past this width (will try to get a measure tomorrow - am at work now). The person at NR was fine to talk with but didn't have many answers and said the query will be passed on to the public relations office. They were not able to verify if the date has been postponed or not, and could not comment on where the cutting was to take place or to what degree. Apparently they must have had to do an Environmental Survey for the work to be planned to proceed, but they could not tell me if that survey is available for viewing.

I sent the following letter to the councillors that Axean suggested:
Dear Councilor Canvin,

We recently received notice that Network Rail plans to resume major tree cutting activities along the rail line between Crystal Palace and Sydenham. The last time they did this was October 2006, at which time they took down whole stands of trees, some of which were on land that appears to be private property and did not present evident risk to the rails. As residents of the area we are very concerned about this as the trees form an effective screen from the train noise, provide privacy, and are an area of important wildlife habitat. We have in the past attempted to contact the Bromley tree protection office, but have been very frustrated by lack of response to calls, emails, etc, despite the office agreeing that it appeared there had been a serious breach of policy through the cutting last year. A discussion of the topic can be found on the community website:
http://www.virtualnorwood.com/forum/index....amp;#entry46935

We are writing to you now to ask if you can help us determine where the cutting scheduled for next weekend will take place and whether it has been appropriately planned from an environmental and land ownership perspective. Are there any measures we can take to minimize the cutting and moreover, encourage replanting after the deforestation events?

Thank you in advance for any advice you can give.

Best wishes....

Phew - thats a long thread!
Firstly, as an Orchard Grove resident (on the track side of the road) the foliage provides vital shielding from the noise of the trains, and I will be very angry to see any of the trees felled.
Sadly we received the NR notification at the weekend announcing their impending visit to the rear of my property next weekend.

I hope that Eagle is correct in stating that the works have been delayed. Orchard Grove has its annual residents meeting at Anerley Town Hall on Monday 4th, and this would be a fantastic forum to raise this issue as it affects so many people directly.

Firstly I just have confirmation from another neighbour who has telephoned UPM today that they are saying the works for next Sunday 3rd Feb are postponed due to engineering works taking precedence – that says something in itself. However, even if this is the case I don’t think we should let sleeping dogs lie in this matter…

Hi Spoon – regards the wording of any response I guess this depends on how deeply or directly this affects the individual really. I appreciate your offer to help as I see you previously said you are not even in the immediate area of the line, so I would personally recommend keeping it short and sweet and perhaps asking them to justify the sudden need for such extensive works that the previous railway authority has never thought was needed. I think the primary organisation to contact at this stage is Network Rail, as they are the landowners and it is them who are asking UPM Tilhill to carry out the works on their behalf. I have a new contact address for Network Rail which differs from the address on their notice, and who is the office called me back after I registered my concerns and are up to speed on these planned works:

Community Relations
Network Rail
40 Melton Street
London NWI 2EE
(I spoke to a ‘Paula’, who has actually been very pleasant and understanding,
however there is no email address listed for here though)

UPM Tilhill
The Oast
Blackham Court
Priory Park
Withyham
East Sussex TN7 4DB
Email: tilhill.seengland@upm-kymmene.com

Hi Ziwa – Thanks for that further update and information, looks very good the wording of the letter you have sent to Cllr Canvin. He should already be familiar with this issue as I wrote to him and Cllr Chris Gaster (sadly now passed away) last year about this amongst other things. I’ll do similar and come back to here in due course with any update.

Apologies if there may be some long gaps in between my post to this forum, but I still do not have a pc at home so have to flit in and out as work allows.

I'm an Orchard Grove resident too, and we've had NO notification from NR (we never do in our block) and like nickyb-inthecp said, not only are the trees an important environmental feature, they also help block some of the noise from the trains. Unfortunately I spotted on my journey to work this morning that some trees have been felled between West Norwood and Streatham Hill, so it would look like we're next...

It really is depressing to see all the greenery disappearing these last few years. What was once a heavily wooded railway embankment is now stark wasteground covered in rubbish (At least they could've tried to clear up the embankment whilst there cutting back on the foliage). As has been mentioned they also make a good sound barrier which they will no longer have.

How often do we get leaves on the line?? Maybe sometimes in the Autumn . The fog was delaying the trains yesterday-what are they going to do about that??

You can bet the trains will still be late.

I hope you get somewhere .

We had an interesting chat with Axean last night at the Park planning meeting. He pointed out some important things:
In Lewisham the vegetation around the railway line is protected as wildlife habitat, so it should be possible to get this in Bromley as well.
There is a known pattern of taking out the trees in blocks, none of which seem so bad until the whole area is denuded.
Documenting presence of bats and owls (especially bats) really helps protect an area, so we all need to learn what to look for.

BTW I have not had any answer from either councillor to my letters.

I have registered my concern with Network Rail and asked that adequate proof be provided from independent, unbiased sources that the planned action is necessary. Hope they get back. They promise to respond within 10 days so I hope that's soon enough, given the delay to the work that you talked about. I asked that the communication be registered as an objection. Their website says they "in most cases, consult the local authority about cutting down trees because the authority is sensitive to local needs". So I quoted this for them and said the authority had not been overly sensitive... It wasn't worded like this, I was calm and polite, I promise! Should I send similar to local councillors or is it in hand? Have we shown enough angry mob? Can't the local papers cover it? Have we not got a journo on the nationals on VN? It's a national problem, I expect. The specialised press or Nature magazine would be good, if they could find a relevant angle for their style, as they are used for picking up stories outside the normal news. Is JGX out there? He got his traffic ticket problem aired on BBC London and might be able to share the contact. Maybe letters to the papers would be good to provoke people. You can just text random grievances to the London evening free papers for print. I'll do that now.

Ziwa, we can quite clearly hear an owl most nights from the car park in Orchard Grove - it could however be living in the park....