Sorry James - no doubt there is a topic covering this, but I can't find it...

WHERE ARE THE RAILINGS THAT SHOULD BE GOING ROUND ST LUKE'S????

Has the whole project died in some sub-committee of Lambeth Council?

I would happily give up a couple of Sundays to help install the bloody things myself.

What's wrong with the lovely fence thats there? I think it adds character

I'd love to know what's happening with the railings too. It seems a shame that the beautiful job that was eventually done on St Luke's Gardens has been left unfinished. The last piece of information I can find is in the Norwood Action Group minutes from June 2006, when it seems the project was temporarily halted because of a disagreement over the specification of the new railings and the budget implications of changing the spec.

These seem to be the most recent Norwood Action Group minutes, so I don't know what happened next. Does anyone know whether the NAG is still operating? I assume from the state of the site that it's now defunct.

NAG is still operating. Apparently there was a meeting just this Tuesday evening at Lancasters. Now we have no Norwood Forum or Norwood Area Committee there is no easy way to find out about anything. It's very frustrating.

I look after NAG's web site. It was set up as a blog so that the committee could post notices and minutes directly to their site. However, they haven't been doing that recently even though the facilities are still in place.

Sorry James, I didn't realise it was your site! Good news that NAG is still around. It would be great if the minutes were updated. I used to find them a very handy source of local information. Maybe that's some incentive for the committee members...?

Any info on the railings situation?

Have asked my usual source about the railings and will report back ...

I happen to sit on the executive group on this project as a rep from Nag.

As ever there is a sorry story.

Before Xmas we were supposed to have seen a final design casting for approval by English Heritage This was being organised by the Council . Well there was supposed to have been a meting in Jan but this was cancelled as even those at the centre who are not council officers can not get any answeres!!! Good old Lambeth.

The good news is that on paper at least the designs are of the highest quality.

Hope this helps

I heard someone say that the builders have gone bust?

I really would like to believe that it isn't simply Lambeth Council's incompetence.

I can confirm that the builders have not gone bust- however a previous contractor on the railings did but that is life . One of the many many many delays is that the approved plans for the railings were wrong (signed off by lambeth council) It was only the sharp eys of the communty members which stopped production of railings aabout 1 metre high when they were supposed to be of variring heights from 1 meter to in places nearly 2.5 meters. This whole project has been a mess with thtreats of legal action from one contractor.

This is the last time that I get involved in a communty project as what should have completed years ago is still no complete. In real terms this is a small project with "the big boys" in as advisors.

As a result this has gone way over budget - is late- and wiith no definate end in site.

The grass looks good though-- needs a cut soon

The crocus are pretty too!

A propos the railings, my Lambeth source tells me:

Based on the last update I received in January, railing samples were being manufactured for approval by English Heritage. Test drilling has already been done. Once approval is given by English Heritage, a programme for installation would be agreed. I'll update you when I get information about the current position.

So, some progress, but we're not there yet ...!

Just had a Labour Party newsletter through my door in which there is news about the revitalised St Lukes.
Quote - "The final touch to the project will be restoring the original cast iron railings which will be about 2 metres high. Samples have been made and once these are approved by English Heritage the railings are due to be installed within the next few months. Val Shawcross says 'My thanks to local residents for steering this important project through.'"

Welcome to VN, Christine T!

So, it's the same story from two sources. That's sort of reassuring, although I'm still puzzled as to why the railing designs haven't already been approved by English Heritage. After all, this project has been running for years!

I think there should be some kind of Norwood street party to celebrate once they have finally been installed. We've all been waiting for YEARS now.

Dear All

I do find sad that " Head Gardener" has to play secret squirell on this . All "Head Gardener" does is to try to put themseves above other people- Most distatefull! This is a public project and all anybody has to do is to phone the number out side St Lukes to speak to the officer in charge!. I really do fail to see why people have to hide behind funny names on this site - What have people got to hide?

I enclose the latest update to get the facts clear
From: Gary Young [mailto:gary@castiron.co.uk]
Sent: 13 February 2008 13:59
To: Fraser, Paul P
Subject: RE: St Luke's Samples


Hi Paul

With regards to the pattern making and samples these are now well under way and I am hoping that we will be able to get all the samples to you by the end of February.

Its unfortunate that due to the protracted approvals procedure we only got the approval prior to Christmas. We had already agreed several slots for producing the patterns and samples with the patternmakers however in the end we had to agree with them that they would do them as quickly as they could given the fact that they had other work in the pipeline. As we were unable to commit to the designs without client approval by the time we did get approval they had already started other work and given the nature of these products it was not possible to take them elsewhere. Hopefully the final approval of the samples will go without any hitches and we can then get onto making the bulk production.

Regards

Gary Young
The Cast Iron Co

Further to this I am gratefull to Val Sharcross for thanking the Communty ( Which I am one) for getting this done and yes it has been a long and hard stuggle with many difficulties but once again lets get the facts clear here.

This was a project which followed on from from the " Failed Gateway scheme" esentially this was a traffic mangament scheme,developed under the Council some 10 years ago which had the support of Mr Livingstone as ever there was not enough money to do the project - A lot of public money was wasted here in consultancy fees. The St Lukes scheme came about due to public pressure and the support of the Area Committee now sadly demised who granted the Money . The members of that defunct committee have contiued to support the scheme even though they are now no longer the admistration namely Cllr Clare Whelan.

So lets hope that nobody is trying to take credit for something they have had nothing to do with- It really is such an old and petty political trick of recyling stuff and we can all see through it.

With regard to having a party YES I have had it on the agenda for months but Council officers state that it is not worth planning yet until the railings actually exist! I was always taught to plan for the future.

As a final point as some of the recent posts have annoyed me.

All but one members of the Executive group from the Community do not even come from the Ward in which St lukes is based. ALL the rest come from an adjoining ward - They are the ones who have put the time and expertise in. Pity those in Knights Hill ward who care so much failed to put any effort in on the project it is after all for the benefit of all. We at least bothered to get off our back sides and stay the distance what ever the difficulty- Time off work for meetings, battling council nonscence -battling Cllrs who see this as a white middle class project. and picking up the professional people who are paid for there expertise and get it wrong! Yes may be we do deserve some thanks BUT DON'T PLAY PARTY POLITICS with a Communty project.

I am not trying to play secret squirrel, but I am trying to protect my source from any embarrassment which he might feel - unlikely as that might be - at seeing his words quoted in public. I do not regard myself as being 'above' anyone else in the community and, frankly, it's quite amusing to be accused of that by someone who then goes on and on about how heroically and nobly they have contributed to this project while the rest of us have allegedly sat on our posteriors. Boasting like that is, in my view, truly distasteful.

As for why people use noms de plume on here, it might (just might) be because they don't want to be on the receiving end of such juvenile abuse and point-scoring, which I guess would just get worse if everyone used their own name. Besides, I think what name to use on here is a matter of choice. I choose to use a nom de plume, others choose to use their own name. Isn't that what democracy is all about? Or are we all to be told what to do?

Moderator's Note
It would be better if everyone could remember to direct their comments to the topic in question rather than towards other members. I'm sure everyone is trying to help but making these sorts of comments isn't very constructive. Can we please draw a line underneath the differences and move on... if we can't we will close the topic.

At kast some thing tangable is happening with the railings.
I have now recived confirmation that we will be having a meeting on 1/april - ( and it is not an april fools day joke but it feels like it) to view the test castings for the railings.

If approved by the by the group which will include English heritage the Council, the Main Contractor and members of the Communty mian production will begin.

At our last meeting we were infrmed that as these are being manufatured in "lots" it may take as long as 6 months to get to the end point.

There are still some final details to work out such as to where the works storage will be, also for health and saftey reasons if the footpaths will need to be closed, certainly some of the units will have to be craned in so ther may be tempory road closers. As ever the members of the communty are simply fed up as to why these issues have not been decided before hand so this may well add to the delay

Good Job Richard. It's reassuring to hear that the project hasn't been dropped.

Now, what do we do to get our friendly Town Centre manager to put up a few big notices on the site explaining what's going on. I think passers by are interested, and have a right to know.

As it happens there some project signs up with a contact number but as this a forum email trevour - Uprichard,Trevor [TUprichard@lambeth.gov.uk] who is the project officer. He can be very obliging

As to dates etc I will post just as sson I get them. this really has been a long drag to get to this point I do feel like recognising the support that the community had from the now defunct area committee for it was they under thae last administration who voted for the money. Some how I do not think even they could have belived how long it would take.

Does any body else have the experience of bing involved in council projects that just seem to go on for ever?

As a result of the meeting I attended yesturday the good news is here at last.

The majority of items heve been approved by English Hertiage so works orders have been agreed to be signed within the next few days.

There are a small number of items which did not pass the test and may well have to have new wooden moulds to be made. Out of interest the moulds are made in the UK - twickenham and the castings are done in india.)

A number of items have as yet not been test casted and will have to go through the approval stage but this is only a matter of a few weeks.

It was agreed that installation will begin on the Norwood High street side as this will allow the temporay fencing to be removed ASAP.

It is hoped that to have the railings fully installed in about ish 26 weeks as from today.

The railngs are about as near original in style shape and form as the originals as we can get . For a church yard as it was -the originals are for some reason way above the averadge standarad for a church of this type so they are some what ornamental. I shall attempt to get some sort of small exhibtion put up if I can

The colour of the railings will be dark green ( approved by EH)

As side issue I raised the problem of the new path that is already detoriating - this will be investgated but it may well be out contract defects

A quote has been asked for a gate which is non ornamental ( it was not part of the original layout added later) for the Norwood high street entrance

The Company ( The Cast Iron Company) has agreed to pay 1/3 of the cost for a memorial plaque dependant on the quote and if there is any money left may well be installed as well

The total weight of cast iron for the railings will be very close to 30 tons ( imperial -to old to do metric tonnes)

A target date of having an opening bash will be 11/11/08 this is not firm at this stage but this is a memorial garden after all.

There is conciderable interest in finding funding to now put in place a copy of the large and very ornimental gates is any body interested in joing a group to progress this?

Also they seems to be some interst in restoring the water fountian just out side the area in the road ( perhaps something like the resord fountain in Dulwich Village

Any comments most welcome and if you would like to help email me

A liitle too early to crack open the champaign this is after all lambeth as far as the dates go but I am faily confident every thing is in place.

I hope this gives people enough information This has ben a long haul and again I thank those cllrs who were memebrs of the old area committee for there support it would never have happened with out them supporting the local community and it was al suppoesed to be simple process taking about 1 year from start to finish. I think it has taken the best part of 5 years.and many of us involved have loos track of time so i could be a year out

The 11th November. That should just about tie in with the opening of Tesco Express, judging by the progress so far.

Ps thanks Richard for keeping us updated. It sounds like it will look great once it is done.

This sounds good, but why will the railings be green? I remember from discussions years ago about the cemetery railings that they had to be that odd sludge brown colour because it was the original colour. Weren't the church railings the same colour? I think it'll look bizarre if the two sets of railings are different colours: did EH take account of that?

I'd assumed the railings would be black, but I suppose if we don't like the colour, we always spend the next decade or so asking them to change it.

Thanks for the detailed report Richard, and thanks for your dedication to this project. You are appreciated.

Firstly may I thank thiose people who have taken the trouble to give words of thanks - in fact it should go to the others who have just as much time and in some cases more. One person who does come to mind and he will not thank me for putting his name in public is a retired gentlman and I use the word precisley called Jim Williams - without him we would have had the wrong railings at the wrong height.

With regard to the colour dark green - This was chosen at a public meeting some 7 years ago. - as ever it is an english heritage approved colour. there really were a small number of options XXXX brown, the blue ( which looks like a puss green/blue ) as on NO 1 london ( Apsley house) or dark green or black

I understand that it became a tradition after the death of Prince Albert to paint railings black to reflect the queens morning.

When the railngs were installed there were very limited paint colours available it took the old ICI to develope new chemiacl dyes which would last. Indeed ICI's first fortune was by making an artificial purple, prior to that purple was only for the very rich hence it's use by royalty going all the way back to roman times- only ceaser was allowed to wear purple.

Latest little problem.

It would appear that a condition of the grant frome English Heritage is that there is a planned maintainace programme. In effect the Railings have to be repainted every 5 years.
Council officers have yet again put this in the too difficult box- luckily it may not be too late to make sure that thei is removed from the too difficult box.
Council officers admited that the Railings around both Vriockwell Park and Borwood cemetry have the same condition on grants they have had but ignore the condition.

What gets up my nose is that if any group gets a grant fom the council any conditions are fully enforced- one rule for the council and one for the public - it is a disgrace

Thank you for your tenacity, Richard.

The investigations begin and hope fully as far as the railings go will be all in order re planned maintainance.
The reply below is from English Heritage and as you can see the basic terms of any grant so this will apply anywhere where agrant has been given. What I find interesting is that EH also include a budget to go along with the agreed method of maintainance.

I bet that this money is not spenet on what it is supposed to be.

Dear Richard,



Thank you for your email. I confirm that it is a condition of the current grant scheme that a 10 year costed maintenance plan will have to be produced and approved prior to our signing off the EH grant. It is a condition of the grant that a brief report is submitted annually to EH to show that this regular routine maintenance has been carried out in accordance with the plan.



We are yet to receive a draft of the maintenance plan and so have not yet agreed what the repainting cycle will be. I anticipate that the landscape architect will advise after consulting the railing manufacturer, paint manufacturer’s recommendations etc.



I was not involved in the other sites mentioned but will pass your email on to a colleague who may be able to look into them.



Regards,

Tracey Craig

English Heritage

Does anyone know what the latest excuse for delay is?

Work was due to start 'in a few days' - that was months ago.

I'm probably being dreadfully ignorant here but why does it actually need railings? Is it to keep people in or out, as it were?

Hild - it's all about historical authenticity!