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Crystal Palace Park - Boating on the lower lake from Easter 2012?

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#16 ChewderOde

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:17 AM

re cycle hire - dulwich park has big fat paths / ring road thingy - palace has in the main narrow skinny little paths so can see sharing those between cyclists and wayward toddlers might present a H&S issue

#17 Nanazola

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 01:03 PM

it would make people come to the park & hopefully spend money in other areas of the park too !

No brainer if you ask me !

Dazza


Totally agree. If we get hung up on where the "money" goes for this, I despair.

#18 kibitzer

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 04:59 PM

Before we start worrying where the revenue income will be spent or on what - let's get the show on the water! Sounds a good idea, get some little boats, coracles or canoes on the lake, stop fretting about everything and let Bromley do the work in finding a suitable operator - it might be the start of other water activities as well even a viking tableau or son et lumiere. Sometimes I think we should just let things take their course and see what happens. If its a success great! if not back to the boating lake. I am being underlined again need some botox.

#19 RetiredMember2

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 06:49 PM

Totally agree. If we get hung up on where the "money" goes for this, I despair.

There seems to be misplaced concern about whether this will or won't go ahead due to concerns about revenue or biodiversity. Bromley are inviting applications from boating companies for a seasonal residency on the lower boating lake to begin Easter 2012. There is no question about whether this will or won't take place. Hurray!

What is important is:
1. the council is consulting and working with the community
2. environmental issues are addressed
3. that revenue raised is invested in CPP and not other Bromley parks

Check out how our friends in the north utilise their boating lakes- worth watching this clip just for the commentary. Enjoy :

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_7R6Pf7fZdI

#20 andreas

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 07:02 PM

Check out how our friends in the north utilise their boating lakes- worth watching this clip just for the commentary. Enjoy :

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=_7R6Pf7fZdI


I clicked the link and received a "malicious website - access blocked" message. Now my computer is having one of its more tempermental periods, but perhaps worth proceeding with caution...
opposed to taking terrapins.

#21 RetiredMember2

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 07:06 PM

I clicked the link and received a "malicious website - access blocked" message. Now my computer is having one of its more tempermental periods, but perhaps worth proceeding with caution...


Really sorry bout that Andreas, thanks for letting us know. Not sure how that happpened it works fine for em. here it is (same link) again in watchable mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7R6Pf7fZdI

#22 Nanazola

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 08:29 PM

There seems to be misplaced concern about whether this will or won't go ahead due to concerns about revenue or biodiversity. Bromley are inviting applications from boating companies for a seasonal residency on the lower boating lake to begin Easter 2012. There is no question about whether this will or won't take place. Hurray!


Well, no Cit M, I was responding to the immediate response to Charlie's post and your post of Louisa Allen's email, which said:

We are planning to send out an procurement advert to let a boating service on the lower lake on Crystal Palace Park, to begin at Easter holidays until the end September 2012 and for 3 years with a potential to extend for a further 2 years. Any views/comments?

Some views and comments related to revenue and biodiversity. For me and some other posters, these issues didn't matter as much as getting the boating lake up and running again. Louisa says that Bromley are planning to put this out to tender, not that it's definitely going ahead, which is presumably why they are asking for our views. Basically I don't want to see the whole thing stymied by endless wrangling and I want that view to be conveyed to Bromley along with everyone else's.

#23 Axean

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 10:46 PM

Remodelling of the lake around 2000 left the fishing folk with the Intermediate Lake (fishing lake), and remodelled the Tidal Lake to turn it into an attractive natural habitat. I believe boating was planned for the northern quarter of the Tidal Lake. The Tidal Lake was hugely successful for wildlife for few years until woeful management (people with horticultural background trying to do habitat management) and destruction of the reed beds by Canada Geese, removed much of the habitat. The Tidal Lake despite a reduction in value in the last few years is still of borough importance because they're are only a few large lakes in the area and even fewer with natural edges. The most obvious picturesque successes were the returns of Swans, and Herons breeding at the site.
Bromley have two, arguably 3 separate statutory duties to protect the biodiversity value of the lake (though with no means of enforcement the duties get ignored). They've have no duty to provide boating.

But.... "Biodiversity" shouldn't stop boats on the lake. Dulwich Park Lake is now superior with regards to terms of Biodiversity and has boats on it.

I've had a bit of indirect involvement/knowledge of the introduction of boating at Dulwich Park Lake so I'll pass on what I learnt.
Before it's restoration Dulwich Park Lake was concrete bowl filled with a eutrophic lake. The park received a lottery grant which funded the restoration of the lake and looked to lessons learnt at Battersea Park, Crystal Palace Park, Tooting Common, South Norwood Lake,etc. The result was similar to the original plan for the tidal lake, but one which had learned not to copy the mistakes made at the tidal lake. The northern quarter of the Dulwich Park lake was set aside for boating, with the rest managed as natural habitat, plus a walkway through reedbeds. The boating got delayed for a few years and by the time it arrived the 'boating area' had biodiversity value. Boats & Wildlife don't mix and Dulwich Park Lake proved this because the 'wildlife' was lost in the boating area. But it didn't matter because the rest of the lake was so significantly better than before. For wildlife it was case of 8 steps forward, 2 steps back, and that's still a clear profit.
If the lessons learnt at Dulwich Park Lake are copied at Crystal Palace then Biodiversity concerns can't be an issue. Problem is Bromley have a poor track record at Crystal Palace Park.

Another problem is the water level in the summer and a the build up of silt in the north east corner. Fencing is going to be needed to limit the area the boats used. Are Bromley willing to spend money preparing an area for boating?

Main problem is likely to be finding someone take on running of the boats. I'm also fairly sure I've heard that the council have more than once sought to bring boats back to the lake and had no takers. Simply wasn't enough money in it. I remember mentioning that Dulwich had got someone to run the boats which seemed to surprise the Bromley officer who'd brought the subject up.

Dulwich Park had problems finding someone to take it on, and this was despite a significant amount of money being spent by Southwark Council (+ lottery money) on preparing an area for boating. Contract is run by Bluebird Boats who now have a bit of a monopoly in London and would be the favourites for Crystal Palace Park. It's felt they can't be making much money at Dulwich Park, and they appear to keep costs down by only employing under 21's (min wage £5.00p/h) on temporary contracts. Everyone wants boats, but not many use them on a rainy Tuesday morning.

#24 Ziwa

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Posted 24 December 2011 - 11:02 PM

There you have it - pretty much sums up the upsides, downsides, limitations and challenges. Thanks, Axean.

#25 RetiredMember2

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:17 PM

Well, no Cit M, I was responding to the immediate response to Charlie's post and your post of Louisa Allen's email, which said:

We are planning to send out an procurement advert to let a boating service on the lower lake on Crystal Palace Park, to begin at Easter holidays until the end September 2012 and for 3 years with a potential to extend for a further 2 years. Any views/comments?

Some views and comments related to revenue and biodiversity. For me and some other posters, these issues didn't matter as much as getting the boating lake up and running again. Louisa says that Bromley are planning to put this out to tender, not that it's definitely going ahead, which is presumably why they are asking for our views. Basically I don't want to see the whole thing stymied by endless wrangling and I want that view to be conveyed to Bromley along with everyone else's.


I'll try this again one more time. Bromley are not consulting the communtiy to decide whether or not it should invite applications from boating companies to take out lease on the lake. Bromley are keeping the communtiy and park users informed of its' plans and asking for views. I posted the contact details so everyone - even boating extremists with their "Yes please let's get those boats on the water asap and forget about the minor details" comments - can submit views.

Whether or not a boating company will take up the offer remains to be seen but it is inaccurate and misleading to paint environmental and revenue issues as annoying wrangles set out to stymie the proposal. Biodiversity and costs will need to be properly considered and addressed by all interested boat companies before any applications can progress and I hope that after reading Axean's excellent post re the biodiversity issues surrounding the lake people will be less inclined to dismiss them.

Here's what the Dulwich Park boats look like:

Posted Image

#26 Nanazola

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Posted 27 December 2011 - 04:07 PM

Whatevs. Said my piece. Nana out.

#27 Zirconium

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:01 AM

Whatevs. Said my piece. Nana out.

Nan - I'm afraid you've been branded as an extremist by the wise one.
I think we need to debate how we can balance the need to provide a public amenity in the form of a park which meets recreational needs and the desirability of accommodating wildlife. In this regard it's worthwhile noting that the nearby South Norwood Country Park hosts a wide variety of wildlife and is maintained as such. CPP however is not that kind of park. There is a balance to be struck and I don't think it's helpful to label as extremists those who want to see recreational activities in CPP.

#28 ChewderOde

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 12:39 AM

too much mass-debating - not enough doing - lets get some boats on the lake - if a private company have to do it they will need to price at a level to generate business and therefore income - so the market will dictate - as for bio-diversity - the palace lake isnt gonna make a blind bit of difference to the world - wee wee into the ocean - we can always find excuses for not doing things - and whilst we are doing such -the stagnant lake stagnates - give me me oars - I feel a paddle coming on

#29 Hermit

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 02:01 AM

In this regard it's worthwhile noting that the nearby South Norwood Country Park hosts a wide variety of wildlife and is maintained as such.


A very good point there, Zirc. South Norwood country park does indeed host a variety of wildlife, I.ve seen baby ducks and signs are up showing the various wildlife/ fish there and also has a full sized boating club.

I used to go on the peddlos in CP Park as a kid back when there was loads to do there.

#30 RetiredMember2

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 06:43 PM

Nan - I'm afraid you've been branded as an extremist by the wise one.

No Zirc, that's your department but for the record, the term boating extremist should have had one of these ;) after it!

I think we need to debate how we can balance the need to provide a public amenity in the form of a park which meets recreational needs and the desirability of accommodating wildlife.

And that's precisely what was/is happening, - hence the need to challenge views that dismissed environmental and revenue issues as obstructive wrangles. Glad to see you're in agreement.

I used to go on the peddlos in CP Park as a kid back when there was loads to do there.


There's been loads happening in the way of events and activities, although if you don'ty have kids then you're probably unaware of what's available
Apart from the boats what else did you enjoy doing that's not available now? Be good to get a list of long lost amenities together to see if they can be brought back to life.





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