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25 Church Road (former Rialto cinema)

licensing events KICC planning use enforcement

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#1 RetiredMember2

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:12 PM

Thought be good to keep a thread to record usage of 25 CR.

13th August: Business conference - D1 (unlawful)

17th November: Drove past at 17.45 and the lobby was rammed - unclear whether people arriving or leaving but noticed earlier that traffic was worse than usual. It was in deadlock at 11.20 along Westow Hill and Anerley Hill, made me think something must be going on in the park.

Anyone else notice anything?


Edited by MattVN, 10 February 2013 - 01:46 PM.


#2 charlie

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:14 PM

I had put a post up on the other thread but seems sensible to record them all in one place. I have taken a screen shot of the flyer which will be sent to Bromley council. Have got someone trying to gauge numbers.

http://eveningforone...ite.com/?rank=1

Edited by charlie, 17 November 2012 - 06:30 PM.


#3 RetiredMember2

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 06:27 PM

Thanks charlie - I will be up later (in disguise in case Ray Hall sees me) and will try to get some pics and video footage.

Here's out of hours phone number for Bromley Noise Control
5.00pm - 8.30am and weekends
Telephone: 020 8464 4848

Hope as many people as possible raise concerns regards the continued unlawful usage of 25 CR and the damage the current ownership has brought to this town by stifling its economic, social and cultural progress.

#4 Posie

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 02:24 AM

Sorry guys never even saw this thread till just now, but did put info for bromley on the long running one and made sure I put a complaint in too for the last event held there.

#5 RetiredMember2

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 10:18 AM

Hi Posie, as I was writing this thread the KICC Open Day thread was bumped up - hence the confusion.

Good to know that so many people raised concerns about this with Bromley, however one of our local groups declined a request to do so under the grounds that it was a "non political business networking group."

Ray Hall is an active member of this group. And just so everyone can be absolutely clear about his intentions here is a copy of a letter circulated to all members of this group in July - it includes a picture of Mr Hall shaking hands with Pastor Dipo in front of 25 CR:

"I first met members of the community in Crystal Palace 15 years ago, when some 2000 police were needed to remove demonstrators from the top site in Crystal Palace Park. I was - and still am - advocating a New Crystal Palace there as the climax of one of South London's much loved public spaces. I was very impressed by one very special characteristic of that community: her ability to welcome into their midst people like me and hence people from all over London and indeed the world. As a result, I became very involved.

About 5 years ago I was asked to become chair of the Crystal Palace Chamber of Commerce. Soon after I learned of the acquisition of the former cinema in Church Road by a group of Christians whose home is South London, with many having originally come from Africa. In good Crystal Palace tradition, I extended a welcome to its leader, a very kindly former doctor called Dipo Oluyomi. Dipo was very keen to meet with local people. He and a number of his colleagues were, therefore, very pleased to be invited to meet with the chamber's core team.

xxxxx was a guest at that meeting. All attending signed in and I still have that record. I was shocked to find that xxxx then campaigned against Dipo and his colleagues, effectively demanding that they leave. One accusation was that the church had not consulted the community when they came to Crystal Palace. The opposite was actually the case as evidenced by the meeting with the chamber.

I am pleased to say that Dipo concluded to be believe in the welcome they had received and that he and his colleagues stayed. They have since transformed the former cinema into what he calls a business and events centre. Being hosted by Christians, it is to be ethically based, which for me is welcomed in the very uncertain world in which we all now live. Dipo has just showed me round. As an architect I have worked on a number of cinemas in the past - and I must say, I was very impressed by the transformation. If the building could speak I am sure it would say a big 'thank you'. But don't just take my word, go and have a look. The building is called 'The Open Door' - and Dipo and his friends mean it. On August 11th they will be having an open house for anyone in the broader community to have a peak. I am 100% certain that the welcoming heart of Crystal Palace still beats strongly, despite campaigns and perhaps misunderstandings.

When you call in do extend a welcome to Dipo and his friends, just as I know they will extend a welcome to you. Ray Hall

25.07.2012"

After reading that I conclude that the warm welcome the CP Chamber of Commerce core team extended to KICC was all the encouragement it needed and that Mr Hall and chums completely dismissed the very clear voice of thousands of local residents and traders. I would also add that the " kindly former doctor, Dipo" was not very kindly or welcoming when it came to meeting local people at the Open Day in August. Mr Hall was a guest of honour at the KICC "business conferenmce". Mr Hall ives in Blackheath and has no busines in Crystal Palace.

#6 RetiredMember2

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:19 AM

Just heard back from Bromley Planning - the evening of worship on 17th November is considered lawful as officers take the view that a gospel consert falls within the D2 use class.

This is very disappointing. Gospel concerts run by religious organisations and not aimed at the wider public (ie in this case the event was only advertised on the groups facebook page) should fall into the same D1 use category as gospel halls.

I hope this does not signal a shift in position by Bromley council.

Edited by citizen M, 06 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.


#7 RetiredMember1

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

Did anyone else hear on the radio news that Picturehouse Cinemas has been bought by Cineworld? Charlie, any idea as to the implications, if any, for 25 Church Road? http://www.itv.com/n...l-picturehouse/

#8 RetiredMember2

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:30 AM

Did anyone else hear on the radio news that Picturehouse Cinemas has been bought by Cineworld? Charlie, any idea as to the implications, if any, for 25 Church Road? http://www.itv.com/n...l-picturehouse/


More here too http://www.virtualno...385#entry136088

#9 Senor Buckethead

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:32 AM

Just heard back from Bromley Planning - the evening of worship on 17th November is considered lawful as officers take the view that a gospel consert falls within the D2 use class.

This is very disappointing. Gospel concerts run by religious organisations and not aimed at the wider public (ie in this case the event was only advertised on the groups facebook page) should fall into the same D1 use category as gospel halls.

I hope this does not signal a shift in position by Bromley council.



Must say I have planning use class dyslexia - always find it confusing - but would be interested in knowing the various classifications I go through every day - go to Sainsburys, to the pub etc etc.

I wonder what use class a mass car parade with horns blaring around the triangle on the occasion of the next 'gospel concert' would be? A1 I would say..
Tadpole - my favourite word

#10 RetiredMember1

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:31 PM

More here too http://www.virtualno...385#entry136088


Ah, sorry for the double posting!

#11 JMS

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 06:41 PM

Citizen M - I have not heard back from LB Bromley following my representation - I would be interested in seeing its response as to its reasoning - are you able to post up the relevant comments?.

whilst I agree a concert by a group - be it gospel singers or Motorhead - represents a D2 use - I am not sure it is that clear cut in this instance given the advert I saw, from memory, advertised itself as, inter alia, an event of worship.

#12 RetiredMember2

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

Citizen M - I have not heard back from LB Bromley following my representation - I would be interested in seeing its response as to its reasoning - are you able to post up the relevant comments?.


Here you go:

I refer to your recent email regarding the use of 25 Church Road.

The lawful use of the premises is Class D2 (Assembly and Leisure) which covers a range of leisure uses including cinema, bingo hall and concert hall. The event held on 17 November appears to have been a gospel music concert which falls within the lawful D2 use.

We have asked the owners to provide additional information about the use of the premises but following a site meeting in August they have not been very forthcoming. I have written to them (copy attached) and served a S330 Notice requiring them to provide certain information about the use of the premises. It is also intended to report the external alterations to the building to a committee early in the new year.

Please let me know if you have any further queries.

Kind regards,


Tim Bloomfield
Development Control Manager
(Appeals & Planning Investigation)
London Borough of Bromley

Edited by citizen M, 06 December 2012 - 07:18 PM.


#13 JMS

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:29 PM

Thanks Citizen M

If it was only a concert then it is a D2 use - the issue is when does it become/what is "worship" - there is lots of case law on the use of Churches as you can imagine but the only reference to gospel concerts vs definition of worship I could find with a fairly superficial review was the following case - see overview below

"It is possible that church sponsored activity may fall within Class D2 if the actual use proposed is primarily entertainment or recreational in character. This position was debated in Bolton 11/03/1994 where a Mission had acquired an ex-billiards hall for use for events and festivals associated with the Hindu faith. An inspector concluded, after much difficulty, that the activity at the appeal premises was primarily recreational, albeit not necessarily in pursuit of recreation for its own sake. The religious component was clearly present, but he could not find an element of the use which could be described as use for the purposes of public worship. He concluded that no material change of use had taken place".


Although the above does suggest the issue is not clearcut.

I suggest any event flyers/publications should be reviewed very carefully to see how events are described.

#14 jamesl

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:59 PM

Has anyone been in touch with Bromley over the licencing aspects ?

Regardless of whether or not the gospel 'concert' is or is not an act of entertainment falling with D2 planning use what about whether the event required a public entertainment licence ?

When 25 CR was Gala Bingo it had full public entertainment licence (somewhere I have record of this as I think other VNer's have and I believe, from memory, it lapsed)

I had a read through of this

http://www.homeoffic...182?view=Binary

and identified the following which might be of relevance:

The 2003 Licencing Act requires a public entertainment licence (in number of possible forms) if an event involves the 'provison of regulated entertainment'. Schedule 1 to the 2003 Act, sets out what activities are to be treated as the provision of 'regulated entertainment' and those that are not and are therefore exempt from the regulated entertainment aspects of the licensing regime. Subject to the conditions, definitions and the exemptions referred to in Schedule 1, the types of entertainment regulated by the 2003 Act are

• a performance of a play;
• an exhibition of a film;
• an indoor sporting event;
• a boxing or wrestling entertainment (whether indoor or outdoor);
a performance of live music
(but note the changes brought in by the Live Music Act 2012 ("the 2012 Act"), see below);
• any playing of recorded music;
• a performance of dance;
entertainment of a similar description to a performance of live music, any playing of recorded music or a performance of dance.

However, these types of entertainment are only regulated where the entertainment takes place in the presence of an audience and is provided, at least partly, to entertain that audience.

Some of the exemptions to the above include those under The Live Music Act 2012 Act which amended the 2003 Licensing Act by deregulating aspects of the performance of live music so that, in certain circumstances, it is not a licensable activity. However, live music remains licensable:

• where a performance of live music – whether amplified or unamplified – takes place other than between 08:00 and 23:00 on any day;
where a performance of amplified live music does not take place either on relevant licensed premises, or at a workplace that is not licensed other than for the provision of late night refreshment;
• where a performance of amplified live music takes place at relevant licensed premises, at a time when those premises are not open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises;
where a performance of amplified live music takes place at relevant licensed premises, or workplaces, in the presence of an audience of more than 200 people; or
• where a licensing authority intentionally removes the effect of the deregulation provided for by the 2003 Act (as amended by the 2012 Act) when imposing a condition on a premises licence or certificate as a result of a licence review (see paragraphs 15.23-15.24 below).

In any of the above circumstances, unless the performance of live music is appropriately authorised by a premises licence, club premises certificate or Temporary Event Notice, allowing it to continue could lead to enforcement action and a review of the alcohol licence or certificate.

‘live music’ is also defined and includes vocal or instrumental music or any combination of the two”. ‘Live music’ is a performance of live music in the presence of an audience which it is intended to entertain.

“relevant licensed premises” refers to premises which are authorised to supply alcohol for consumption on the premises by a premises licence or club premises certificate (i.e pubs and bars) – neither of which appears to apply to 25 Church Road

Public performance of live unamplified music that takes place between 08:00 and 23:00 on any day no longer requires a licence in any location

There is no longer a licensing requirement for the provision of entertainment facilities - entertainment facilities means facilities for enabling persons to take part in making music or dancing (or entertainment of a similar description) for the purpose of being entertained .

So........the questions I wonder Bromley ought to asked are :
  • Does 25 Church Road have a licence so that it is “relevant licenced premises” (so that the live music act exemption might apply)
  • Is it an ‘entertainment facility’ and exempt ? I assume not because I cannot see how a facility which is designed to enable performances in front of an audience can be said to be one where the activity is restricted to “taking part in” making music
  • If neither 1 or 2 applies not then would an act of regulated entertainment at 25 Church Road require a licence ?
  • If the answer is yes ,does a gospel concert amount to ‘regulated entertainment’ (and so is a licencable activity?

(I assume Bromley would need to be satisfied that the event also fell into the definition of live music that was amplified and involved an audience but I can’t imagine, looking at the flyer and knowing that there is a huge sound systems in the building that it is credible that the event did not involve music and singing, in amplified form, in front of an audience)

  • If regulated entertainment what sort of licence would be needed and was any form of licence in place on 17 November 2012 (e.g was a temporary events licence, premises or personal licence need and in place)
  • If a licence was needed and not in place who was responsible for getting one (premises owner – KICC or event organiser ?) and what are Bromley, as the Licencing Authority, going to do about it ?


Interestingly public entertainment ‘activities which involve participation as acts of worship in a religious context’ are not licensable, but of course this wasn’t an act of worship (at least according to Bromley) so this exemption should not apply to the question of whether a licence was needed.

#15 RetiredMember1

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:16 AM

Impressive work, James.





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