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Resale of Tickets

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#1 James



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 09:22 AM

I would like to invite feedback from members regarding our forum policy for advertising tickets in our Items for Sale section. The current policy does not make any specific mention of tickets and says the following:

Virtual Norwood does not make any warranty, express or implied for items advertised for sale. We will only accept legal, decent, honest and truthful descriptions for items but excluding (and not limited to) trade ads, personal services, ringtones or warez, age restricted or illegal items. All users are advised to check ad details carefully before entering into any agreements of any kind. If in doubt, please seek legal advice.

The resale of football tickets is not permitted in law because of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 and as such is already covered by the phrase "illegal items".

Depending on the terms of sale, many concert and event tickets are allowed to be resold. Virtual Norwood isn't able to inspect the terms for the tickets being advertised so we can't tell whether it is right or wrong for them to be advertised. The majority of the tickets advertised to date have been offered at a free, reduced price or face value price.

Consumer Direct have commented on the resale of tickets on another forum as follows:

From the information you have provided us we understand you wish to ensure you are compliant with the relevant laws when selling concert tickets for profit.

If you are selling the tickets as a private individual, the tickets would have to be yours to sell, and must match any description you apply. For example, if you describe the tickets simply as '2x Take That tickets, Manchester 20th April 2007' then that is all they have to be - you would not have to specify where the seats are, or what the original face value is. If these aspects are important to the buyer, the onus would be on them to make further enquiries.

You should bear in mind that many tickets now specify that resale is not allowed, and there is an increasing trend for the name of the buyer to be printed on the ticket. If the ticketholder cannot show they are the named buyer (or are not with the buyer) they may be denied entry to the venue. As such, you should be wary of buying tickets specifically to sell, as you could be creating problems for buyers, and yourself if those buyers start demanding refunds from you.

You should also that if you sell lots of tickets, or sell tickets on a regular basis, you may be classed as a trader, in which case your obligations to buyers would change. You may become liable for any 'faults' arising from the contract (for example, giving a refund if the concert is cancelled). You may also become liable for paying tax on the revenue.

Bearing in mind that additional restrictions would reduce our sponsorship income (which is vital to the sustainability of our web site) should we limit the resale of tickets in general? Should we allow some tickets to be resold and if so on what basis?

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#2 Dazza


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Posted 09 May 2007 - 10:57 AM

Wonder how many times the Police have ever enforced this law outside a football ground 10 mins before kick off .

Its a law a bit like video tapes /recordble dvds where it states you are only allowed to record programmes for your own viewing how many people have ever borrowed video/dvd from friends.

If these greedy providers of tickets had a returns policy especially footie organisations then this hooligan law would not be a problem the fact these tickets cost so much in the 1st place means that no one can afford to write of the cost of a ticket. Hence tickets will always be sold on.

Somehow I cant see football organisations coming round to this idea though !

I personally dont see the problem of tickets being sold on for a profit if you have people clambering for them . however I am just happy to get the face value of any ticket back I have purchased.

Ebay & forums of this have nearly made ticket touts a thing of the past which I think is a good thing.

Your obviously mistaken me with someone who gives a fig

#3 gekko



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 10:58 AM

Okay, here's my take on it. The issue for me is not with the resale of tickets itself. If the buyer cannot go then it's great that someone else gets the opportunity to go in their place. However, I do think that these tickets should be sold at face value or lower as the intention should not be to make a profit. The nature of Virtual Norwood is such that it does much to foster a sense of community, both on and off the internet. For this reason I feel that when people attempt to sell goods on here for more than their face value, this is against the spirit of the community and leaves a bad taste in the mouths of other members.

There was a similar instance not long ago where someone tried to sell on a Nintendo Wii at a profit. This also generated complaints. For me, the best way to resolve it would be to have two rules:

1. You must not knowingly sell an item for higher than the RRP, unless it is of a type which is known to appreciate in value over time (e.g. a vintage car or other antique).
2. You must state the full price of the item when you list it and not just say 'make me an offer'.

I do think that under the present posting rules, people who advertise items and are clearly looking to make a profit cannot really complain when other members take umbrage. No-one likes to feel ripped off and there are many who feel strongly about the increasing trend of buying products that are in short supply and selling them on to make a profit.

Edited by gekko, 09 May 2007 - 11:01 AM.

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#4 Elmo


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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:16 AM

I welcome the resale of tickets. VN provides a valuable route for carrying out transactions where we don't have to resort to buying items off fleabay at a grossly inflated price.

What I strongly object to is the resale of tickets (or any item) for profit on what is a friendly neighbourhood message board - it can create bad feeling and should be discouraged... but I guess that's a personal thing.

I hope we keep it, and add that every ticket should give seat location and purchase price. Any attempt to sell for profit - send them to fleabay...
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#5 charlie



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:19 AM

For this reason I feel that when people attempt to sell goods on here for more than their face value, this is against the spirit of the community and leaves a bad taste in the mouths of other members.

I could not agree more Gekko. Not for profit should be VN's banner for the Resale of Tickets. Really pleased members complained - I felt grubby just reading that particular thread. Is it necessary to limit the resale of tickets in general - surely this was the exception rather than the rule James?

#6 Retired Member 1

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:27 AM

I fully agree with Gekko too, it is the spirit of VN and the community that must be preserved. There are proper websites like Ebay and similar that not only provide this kind of service but you can then protect yourself (paypal or similar) if there is any problem with the item.

Also, assuming someone makes a profit by selling a fake ticket on VN, the person who buys it is totally exposed to the fraud as the payment mainly happens cash and VN is not responsible.

Correct em if I am wrong on this one

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#7 Dazza


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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:32 AM

Share trading works on exactly the same principle but this is done by people who wear flashy suits & get paid amazing salaries.

Personally I dont see the difference !

Your obviously mistaken me with someone who gives a fig

#8 duckec01



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:33 AM

Totally agree with the postings that they should be NFP.

Ebay has not done away with ticket touts merely made it easier for them and created opportunities for many more amateur touts thus depriving geuine fans of the chance to see concerts/sporting events etc.

#9 matt



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:42 AM

I don't wear a flashy suit Dazza, I wear smart-casual. The difference of course is that share trading is incredibly regulated, you have to be licensed to do it, and its done on a regulated exchange (usually) - you also face 14 years in prison for manipulating the market. None of which apply to Virtual Norwood (apart from that I am still wearing smart-casual).

#10 Mango


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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:49 AM

I'd agree that it should be face value or less. I recently advertised two tickets for a concert on here because I couldn't make it, and I offered them free to whoever could pick them up. I'd rather somebody used them than them go to waste.

To be honest though the best local place to advertise tickets seems to be Gumtree - that's where i ended up selling mine - as it covers a much wider area.

#11 Dazza


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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:52 AM

Any tickets which I have bought from Ebay are by people who are genuine fans or by people who have been let down by a friend for some reason ,most of the tickets I have bought have been for less than the face value.

I cant agree that ebay is a breeding ground for ticket touts purely from my own experiencing of purchasing tickets from ebay for various events.

You must have had a bad experience ducke01

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#12 Ziwa



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 12:02 PM

I agree with the sentiments that VN should try to be NFP.
However, there might be members of our community who would be beside themselves knowing that a ticket for something they deeply desire is being sold in their neighborhood...and they didn't know. Could we allow postings that say something like 'I am selling tix for X through eBay, details and contacts are disclosed there'. This is also what we do, effectively, for selling property. People post a notice to go to another link through an estate agent. I also suggested something similar for crime, which would be basically a VN alert service to postings on other websites. VN seems to me like a neighbourhood back fence - we exchange opinions, observations and gossip, but ultimate verification comes from outside.

#13 Uncle Wilf

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 12:15 PM

Quite right - VN Not for profit.

Gekko's argument makes perfect sense.

Not often in a position to go to something at short notice so unlikely to purchase tickets for example in this way myself, but hiking up the price does not feel comfortable.
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#14 Urma



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 12:19 PM

For the record, I'm strongly agreeing with the nfp sentiments relating to this forum, the fact that I would like to offer any tickets I couldn't use to my local v-friends (although that sounds a little sad somehow - really really I have actual friends too) first, and with Ziwa that VN would work just as effectively as a 'signpost' to alert others to the location of the relevant sale site if sellers were hoping for 'market' price, assuming that Babs tickets, for example, might fetch well over face value.

Regarding 'flipping' - don't like it, but we live in a market economy. If I want to pay less, I stay off the paths most trodden...

#15 HeadGardener



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Posted 09 May 2007 - 12:22 PM

I'll add my vote for NFP. If people wish to speculate to accumulate then there are other, better places for them to ply their trade. I guess that James and the moderators could be left in a very vulnerable position if VN becomes VN-bay and aggrieved buyers want to assert their consumer rights.