Jump to content


Photo

Thank you to the person who left their travel card....


  • Please log in to reply
50 replies to this topic

#16 MattVN

MattVN

    VN Admin

  • Admin
  • 543 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 06:58 AM

you mean you're supposed to pay for Pick'n Mix?..... :rolleyes:


Classic - I love it.

I think that acts where people are thinking about other people (and where the criminal magnitude is very low) are great.

Virtual Norwood Admin | Visit VN's WikiBlogsGallery and Calendar

Contact me via webform or at 

 


#17 Green Man

Green Man

    Member

  • Members 2
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:48 AM

I think that acts where people are thinking about other people (and where the criminal magnitude is very low) are great.


I think your confusion is because the recipient of the ticket is much easier to identify than the victims of the crime.

When someone uses a ticket fraudulently, tfl are deprived of that revenue. That revenue should be used for the good of all rail users, not just one individual.

#18 Palacegirl

Palacegirl

    Member

  • Members 3
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 796 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 11:37 AM

oh come on ..... tfl ....... rail companies, don't get me started.... It makes me cringe when I hear announcements like : there's delays due to adverse rail conditions.....ANY other EU country can get their railways (and roads) sorted even if there's snow.... here we don't we don't even need snow and it's a mess.... so if they would use the money to get all that sorted, maybe, just maybe I wouldn't give my ticket to somebody else 'illegally'

peace and love and all of that - I am happy to give my tickets, parking tickets and similar to somebody else - especially if it puts a smile on their face... :hugkiss:
..supporting the triangle and freedom of speech.....

#19 Green Man

Green Man

    Member

  • Members 2
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 12:51 PM

If it's a matter of calculated civil disobedience, then that's another thing entirely, but the original poster seemed to be implying that he had been the recipient of some sort of cost-saving charitable endeavor, which clearly, he had not.

#20 Silver

Silver

    Member

  • Sponsors
  • 1,643 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 01:54 PM

I suspect that Green Man does not live in Crystal PAlace. They certainly don't have the rock and role image that we are tryng to cultivate up here on the hilltop.

I was once undercharged for something once and I went back into the shop to tell them. This caused terrible trouble with the cashier being repremanded by his boss, them having to re jig the receipt etc. They would have much preffered that I kept on walking and quite honestly so would I.

In my opiion if I give my travel card to someone - no problem. I could if I wanted have used it on another 6 journeys that day so what is the harm someone else taking my journeys. If TFL miss out then they only have themselves to blame for producing a system that makes this possible.

#21 Green Man

Green Man

    Member

  • Members 2
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 02:26 PM

You've mis-understood. It's not about how many people use the trains, it's about revenue. If someone fraudulently uses another's ticket, they are denying tfl revenue.

Do you really believe that crime is acceptable merely because you are not likely to get caught? I think not.

#22 Andy

Andy

    Member

  • Members 3
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 244 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 03:48 PM

How is it fraud when the person found that travel card in a ticket machine?

The card could have been a daily one and not linked / numbered to a particular travel pass. Where is the crime in obtaining a travel card from a ticket machine and using it?

#23 Green Man

Green Man

    Member

  • Members 2
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:02 PM

Because they're not transferable.

#24 John D

John D

    Member

  • Members 3
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 135 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 04:55 PM

Perhaps I should form a squad ?.................

..............there again perhaps not
Chief Inspector John Duffy

#25 MattVN

MattVN

    VN Admin

  • Admin
  • 543 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 06:49 PM

I think your confusion is because the recipient of the ticket is much easier to identify than the victims of the crime.

When someone uses a ticket fraudulently, tfl are deprived of that revenue. That revenue should be used for the good of all rail users, not just one individual.


I'm not confused. I think I look at this case and see that the damage is very limited. Infact at the level of which this happens (it's not like everyone is trading travelcards) I think that the damage is almost negligible. Especially when you put this scenario in context and look for any 'good' that comes out of it, rather than looking at it solely from a 'bad' (loss of revenue) point of view.

To be pendantic, if we're tracing back the destruction to society that this act does, lets be pedantic and look at the good to society it does.
The money saved - the traveller can now buy a cute little teddy bear for his daughter. Or even the good will generated in a kind act towards another human being could inspire the recipient may go home and write the next Christmas musical hit, draw something colourful or maybe s/he'll just pass it (a kind act) on.

The balance here is much more of a closer call than comparing a more serious crime's good vs bad effects.

You've mis-understood. It's not about how many people use the trains, it's about revenue. If someone fraudulently uses another's ticket, they are denying tfl revenue.

Do you really believe that crime is acceptable merely because you are not likely to get caught? I think not.


Gren Man are there any laws which you disagree with?

Of course if TfL's revenue was reduced significantly by people sharing the cards then if wouldn't be a good thing. And the laws/rules keep the level low. So it's good that it is a crime, in fact ticket prices are possibly marginally higher because of this, but I don't think that the human effect should be ignored.

It's like when you park your car and someone hands you a ticket because there's still 45 minutes left on the sticker. Of course your going to use it. If feels good. Not necessarily because you saved 1.50 but because someone else is being nice...

Just to add: I think the crux of this, like Green Man said, is who are the victims. The victims can only either be directors, staff or the public/other train users. In this case I really think that the ticket prices filter in a fraction for this, just like a higher fraction is filtered in for people who throw litter on the platforms and just like an even higher fraction is filtered in for CCTV.

Now as a train user I really don't mind paying the negligible bit for card sharers, but the bit's for so many cleaning staff (because of people throwing rubbish on the floor) and security for thugs or terrorism - I don't litter and I'm not a thug or a terrorist, why do I have to pay for that?

Virtual Norwood Admin | Visit VN's WikiBlogsGallery and Calendar

Contact me via webform or at 

 


#26 Spoon

Spoon

    Paolo Di Catio's mum

  • Members 3
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,033 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 07:50 PM

Someone left the business centre in our holiday hotel last week with 15 minutes to go on the internet access time they'd paid for. They saw Mr Spoon entering to check us in to our flight and offered him the 15 minutes they didn't need. Guess what Mr Spoon did...

... he...

GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED! :o

I ALWAYS give away a car park ticket with time left on it to run and if, as someone pointed out, people weren't too paranoid to take last-chance saloon travelcards, I would have given all of mine away too when I bought them years ago. Nothing now will ever make up for the delays and cancellations I experience courtesy of TFL and friends almost Every. Single. Day.

#27 misspoddy

misspoddy

    Member

  • Sponsors
  • 1,700 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 08:36 PM

Even though I would still happily take someone's Travelcard or give mine to someone (even now I've learned this is actually ILLEGAL, which I didn't know before), it seems like Green Man has a point! The damage to TfL seems to be considerable as I have found out. To see exactly how big the damage was TfL made an experiment at Brixton Station where they asked the travellers coming out of the tube NOT to give away their travelcard but put it in a special box, and for each ticket TfL would give a tiny percentage to a homeless people helping association. The article I found didn't mention though how big the damage actually is, nor if this scheme made any difference...

So I guess YES, Green Man you are right, it is illegal and we will actually end up harming ourselves as TfL to prevent money-loss will just rise the ticket prices. But it just feels so goooooood! Both ways! It's great to give your ticket to someone, as it make you feel really good, like a sort of little Ticket-Santa and it's great to get the ticket as it gives you the feeling of a really really lucky day! So I guess if you weigh up the good, the bad and the ugly, most of us will continue giving and taking travelcards and feeling very good about it!

#28 Green Man

Green Man

    Member

  • Members 2
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 102 posts

Posted 13 December 2008 - 09:42 PM

I'm not confused. I think I look at this case and see that the damage is very limited. Infact at the level of which this happens (it's not like everyone is trading travelcards) I think that the damage is almost negligible. Especially when you put this scenario in context and look for any 'good' that comes out of it, rather than looking at it solely from a 'bad' (loss of revenue) point of view.


The opportunity cost of using someone else's ticket fraudulently, is the face value of the ticket which would have been purchased - in this case somewhere between 5.10 and 18.00.

The net effect of your actions is to take money away from tfl, and put it into the pocket of a stranger. Let me ask you: would you be so generous with your own money? Would anyone come out of a station and give a random stranger 18 of their own money? It seems unlikely.

If you want to be generous to strangers then by all means do so. If you want to commit fraud and deny tfl their money, then go for it, but do so in the full knowledge of what you are doing.

#29 MattVN

MattVN

    VN Admin

  • Admin
  • 543 posts

Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:12 AM

The opportunity cost of using someone else's ticket fraudulently, is the face value of the ticket which would have been purchased - in this case somewhere between 5.10 and 18.00.


Not true. The opportunity cost all things considered isn't the face value at all. Processing costs, printing the ticket, the cost of the card itself, tax that tfl would pay on the extra revenue are all avoided - I'm sure I could list more things that bring the opportunity cost down. Plus you place no value on the goodwill between mankind :)

Look don't get me wrong, there is value in what you're saying. I wouldn't want to actively promote the behaviour. For example I've seen reports on how TfL have caught people using someone else OAP travel card - I think that's a much bigger infraction. Also like I said if everyone was sharing travelcards then I'd pay more attention to it being an issue, but I don't see this being that big a deal.

Especially when the price for a ticket is quite high and some people don't have a lot of money plus we need more nice gestures in this world (ideally those that don't laws, but I wouldn't send someone who re-uses a travelcard to prison, would you?).

Virtual Norwood Admin | Visit VN's WikiBlogsGallery and Calendar

Contact me via webform or at 

 


#30 Spooks

Spooks

    Member

  • Members 3
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 127 posts

Posted 14 December 2008 - 04:13 PM

Green Man,

I'm wondering if you would pass your daily travelcard to a partner or close friend? Or would you insist that they purchase a new one although you were no longer using yours?

Personally I feel that the playing field between passenger and LT is far from level; the cost to the individual against the level of service provided from a public transport provider is one of the worst in the world. Go to tokyo, paris or any other world class city to see how ripped off the customers in london are. Just because it is a law does not make it right or just.