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#1 peakoverload

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 03:45 PM

I posted a question a few weeks ago asking for any information on the house that I grew up in which was 117 Church Road and was given an incredible amount of information by "Johns_Sister".

One of the people that came up as living there in 1891 was a Helen E Milne who was still living there in 1901. As you've probably heard the 1911 census has just come online but I've noticed something which I can't really explain.

In the 1901 census I can search for the house by it's address and find all it's occupants. However in doing this for the 1911 census it finds nothing which is a little odd. If I search for Helen E Milne I do find a record for her still living in Upper Norwood but her address is no longer given as 117 Church Road instead she says that her address is "The Trees Upper Norwood". When my family lived there from the late 60's, and I assume still today, the house at 117 was called Rosebank with it's name on the front gate.

So the questions are:

1. Is there actually a house in Upper Norwood that was/is simply called "The Trees"
2. Does anyone know of a way of verifying a house name to an actual house number?
3. Chance in a million but does anyone know if "The Trees" was the old name for 117? As the house still had something like 12-15 trees in it's garden when we lived there I guess the name could well be apt!

#2 Sylvester

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:51 PM

Hi Peakoverload - I've got a copy of an 1894 map. Overleaf it lists the properties in the main roads, and 117 Church Road is shown as The Trees! The house was at the far end of Church Road (before Upper Beulah Hill but opposite), though neither the name nor number are shown on the map itself. The resident at that time is given as George Milne.
aka Pie

#3 peakoverload

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 07:59 PM

Once again you guys don't let me down!

That's great and thank you so much for looking, so can you confirm that the house on your map is situated a few doors down (towards the parade) from Fox Hill and opposite what is now Westow Park. Out of interest what map is it that you have? I have a couple of Ordinance Survey maps but they don't mention The Trees.

#4 Sylvester

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:04 AM

No, from my map and the information overleaf it looks as if no. 117 is further along Church Road, towards South Norwood Hill. I got the map from Alan Godfrey Maps, see here. I live near there myself and will check the house numbers next time I'm out.
aka Pie

#5 peakoverload

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:23 AM

No, from my map and the information overleaf it looks as if no. 117 is further along Church Road, towards South Norwood Hill. I got the map from Alan Godfrey Maps, see here. I live near there myself and will check the house numbers next time I'm out.



Hmm, interesting! I have a couple of maps that I too got from Alan Godfrey. One is just of South Norwood the other is the Kent Sheet 7.10 Crystal Palace 1871 which stops right at the edge of where 117 is today but it doesn't list any house numbers or names.

I guess the map you have must therefore be London Sheet 145 Crystal Palace, Anerley & Upper Norwood 1894?

I wouldn't have thought that a house numbers would change on a street so that in 1901 117 was where it is now, in 1911 it's then at the other end of Church Road and then at some point before 1960 it moves back to the original house. That said, Ordanance Survey maps are usually very accurate. Puzzling!

I'd be very interested to hear what you find the next time you are up there.

#6 john's_sister

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 09:50 PM

Looks as if the whole 117 Church Road/Milne family thing may be wrong! Never mind. Your best bet is to get to either Croydon or Lambeth libraries and look at all the old maps and photos that they have available.

I know from personal experience that house numbers DO change over the years. I've researched my family in the Southwark area and it was only with the help of local historians at the libraries that I have actually been able to find their exact whereabouts.

You've probably seen this.....but in case you haven't http://www.norwoodso...ofnorwood.shtml

Have you read "Home" by Julie Myerson? "The story of everyone who ever lived in our house?"....Although not set in Upper Norwood, it is quite an interesting read.

I've splashed out and have been looking up my family's exact whereabouts in the 1911 Census....quite expensive, but worth it. (Well, to me at least).

Wishing you all the best with your further investigations.

#7 peakoverload

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:25 PM

Looks as if the whole 117 Church Road/Milne family thing may be wrong! Never mind. Your best bet is to get to either Croydon or Lambeth libraries and look at all the old maps and photos that they have available.

I know from personal experience that house numbers DO change over the years. I've researched my family in the Southwark area and it was only with the help of local historians at the libraries that I have actually been able to find their exact whereabouts.

You've probably seen this.....but in case you haven't http://www.norwoodso...ofnorwood.shtml

Have you read "Home" by Julie Myerson? "The story of everyone who ever lived in our house?"....Although not set in Upper Norwood, it is quite an interesting read.

I've splashed out and have been looking up my family's exact whereabouts in the 1911 Census....quite expensive, but worth it. (Well, to me at least).

Wishing you all the best with your further investigations.


I'm not sure that the whole 117 Church Road/Milne family thing is wrong simply because I have a copies of the original 1891 & 1901 census's that quite clearly say that they were living at 117. It's 'only' when we get to the 1911 census does it get confusing as 117 seems to not appear on the census at all, (maybe nobody was living there?) but the entire Milne family are still together living under one roof in Upper Norwood. Now it may be that they moved to this other house called "The Trees" or maybe 117 wasn't empty, the Milne's were still living there, but the house back then was called "The Trees". But then that doesn't explain why an ordnance survey map shows "The Trees" in completely the wrong place! Ahhhh!! :lol: I am definitely visiting the Croydon library plus anywhere else I can find as I'm really intrigued now. Thanks for the link BTW, had seen it before but never read it. An interesting read.

#8 Sylvester

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:00 PM

I've now taken a walk along Church Road and you're right, no. 117 (Rosebank) is down the other end near the junction with Westow Street. I can't imagine why it's shown on my map as being nearer the other end, but as john's_sister says, the numbers may have changed at some point - it seems between 1894 and 1901. It was definitely called The Trees though! Hope you can learn more at Croydon library and if so, please post up your results.
aka Pie

#9 peakoverload

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Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:47 PM

I've now taken a walk along Church Road and you're right, no. 117 (Rosebank) is down the other end near the junction with Westow Street. I can't imagine why it's shown on my map as being nearer the other end, but as john's_sister says, the numbers may have changed at some point - it seems between 1894 and 1901. It was definitely called The Trees though! Hope you can learn more at Croydon library and if so, please post up your results.


Yeah, I now have my own copy of the map you have (thanks again for the link) and notice that other numbers are different. For example The Queens Hotel (or Quality Hotel as it is now - Criminal change of name!!) has always, in my life time, been at 122 Church Road. However according to this map the Queens Hotel in 1894 was at 82 Church Road :unsure: As the Queens Hotel has a fair bit of history itself I thought I would stand a chance at finding something from around that time that mentioned it's address as being 82 Church Road but everything so far says, if anything at all, 122 Church Road. Therefore either there was a total reversal of house numbers at some point or the map is wrong. Seeing as the original map (the one actually printed in 1894 and not this modern reproduction) wouldn't have had these house numbers and names on the back I guess it's also possible the person who made this reprint simply got the numbers mixed up.

Only way to be sure is to do some more digging!

#10 Chris Doran

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 04:29 AM

Spot checks on Kelly's Directory of Surrey, 1913,at Historical Directories indicate that the numbering was unchanged from 1894. The next directory I have to hand is 1936, by which time the renumbering had been done. Counting from the junction with Belvedere Road (45/47 in 1894, 97/99 today) I make it that today's 117 used to be 65 (Mrs Elizabeth Wood in 1894), which is consistent with Mr Wood, contractor, at No 67 with a yard (now Claybourne Mews) behind. To be certain, a visit or email to Croydon Local Studies to compare transitional directories is required.

No 65 does exist in the 1911 census. I'll leave the fun of doing census lookups for 65 to others.

#11 Sylvester

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:12 PM

.For example The Queens Hotel (or Quality Hotel as it is now - Criminal change of name!!)

It was renamed the Queen's Hotel again some time ago.
aka Pie

#12 Joe

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 12:25 AM

Sorry to distract from the original post but does anyone know the number of Church Rd that is imediatly on the right past Auckland Rise towards CP. (Ronnie Corbet's house in the early 70's)

I have tried google maps but they seem to put house numbers all over the place in Church Rd.

#13 peakoverload

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 10:17 AM

Spot checks on Kelly's Directory of Surrey, 1913,at Historical Directories indicate that the numbering was unchanged from 1894. The next directory I have to hand is 1936, by which time the renumbering had been done. Counting from the junction with Belvedere Road (45/47 in 1894, 97/99 today) I make it that today's 117 used to be 65 (Mrs Elizabeth Wood in 1894), which is consistent with Mr Wood, contractor, at No 67 with a yard (now Claybourne Mews) behind. To be certain, a visit or email to Croydon Local Studies to compare transitional directories is required.

No 65 does exist in the 1911 census. I'll leave the fun of doing census lookups for 65 to others.


That is VERY interesting Chris and I thank you for looking all of this up, it is much appreciated.

I now have an account at ancestry.co.uk (which has so far enabled me to trace my family tree back to 1733!) and will no doubt help with finding the history of 117/65 Church Road too. I hope to be able to also go to the Croydon Local Studies library in the next couple of weeks which hopefully will dig up some more answers but will no doubt raise more questions too!

In the mean time I've managed to buy lots of postcards and photos of Upper Norwood and of the Crystal Palace of which the majority are from 1900 to 1905. Not only are the photos fascinating, especially of the old shops on Westow Street and Westow Hill, but also the messages on the back are interesting too and a couple of them talk about how they've just been inside the Crystal Palace. It really makes the history come to life and they are remarkably well preserved.

#14 Chris Doran

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Posted 21 January 2009 - 11:59 AM

I now have an account at ancestry.co.uk (which has so far enabled me to trace my family tree back to 1733!) and will no doubt help with finding the history of 117/65 Church Road too. I hope to be able to also go to the Croydon Local Studies library in the next couple of weeks which hopefully will dig up some more answers but will no doubt raise more questions too!

To speed things up, here are the census references for the lower numbers of Church Road from 1861 in the form RGxx/yyy/folio/page/schedule:-

1861: Alma Public House: RG9/451/144/29/170
1871: RG10/850/24/42/198 to RG10/850/25/43/200; RG10/850/26/45/211 to RG10/850/27/48/226
1881: RG11/822/105/51/246 to RG11/822/108/57/285
1891: RG12/598/4/1/1 to RG12/598/6/5/29; RG12/596/4/1/1 to RG12/596/14/21/106 (47-127 & 120-6)
1901: RG13/650/101/1/1 to RG13/650/102/4/27 (1-39); RG13/650/103/6/35-37 (41-45) to RG13/650/102/5/31; RG13/649/117/7/34 to RG13/649/123/20/102 (4-174); RG13/649/103/37/184 to RG13/649/105/41/206 (47-Gastley Ldg); RG13/649/105/41/207 to RG13/649/106/44/219 (103-127)

Don't take 65 as correct until confirmed by directories. Only 2 people living there in 1901 seems too few for such a large house.